HTH with multi-hex creatures

RobW · 08-18-2019, 06:12 AM

Last night we had a battle where a summoned gargoyle wanted to HTH a three-hex giant crab.

The idea was the gargoyle flies down and grapples with the crab. Not necessarily taking it down to the ground, but beating and clawing it while "riding".

Although the general idea seemed reasonable, no one was quite sure what to do. The GM ruled a contest of ST each turn to see if the gargoyle could hold on before attacking (it couldn't).

Any other ideas for HTH involving multi-hex creatures?

Senturian · 08-18-2019, 08:40 AM

can't inflict much damage from above unless you can punch thru it's exoskeleton (watch Starship Troopers), so grab onto an eye stalk and pull.
visit Petsmart and watch how crabs eats. You'll probably find yourself on the ground in front of or below the crab if you grab onto a claw that it's trying to pinch you with. pretty sure that's not where you want to be.

I'm intrigued in the storyline that lead up to the fight.

Skarg · 08-18-2019, 11:28 AM

The rules mention what to do in the opposite situation - with the rules on how a larger figure can Push into smaller figures' hexes to try to knock them down, and the larger figure can then choose whether to trample figures under them, or to enter HTH with them. The smaller figure is allowed to make HTH attacks while under the larger figure, but doesn't make the larger figure fall down or be limited to HTH options with the smaller figure unless the larger figure wants to enter HTH.

I tend to rule in a similar way when smaller figures want to be in HTH with larger ones. A smaller figure can attempt HTH and roll as usual, but the result if successful is that the smaller figure falls and is in HTH but the larger figure can opt to decline to fall or be in HTH itself, and can trample the smaller one, and/or walk away during movement if there aren't enough smaller figures to engage it.

If a figure wants to do the "I grab on and ride it" thing, I like that not to be an easy thing. I think about what the thing is and how hard it would be to hold on and ride while it is alive and wants you dead. So, after a smaller figure enters HTH with a larger one, make an appropriate roll to not just be on the ground, but hanging onto the larger figure. At least 4/DX difficulty, even using both hands with nothing in those hands, unless it's a horse and you're a horseman and/or have Acrobatics. Additional rolls each turn to keep hanging on, made more difficult if it is doing things that make sense to try to knock you off. Also notice which hex the smaller figure is attached to, and it would take another hard DX roll each turn to try to crawl to another hex closer to some part you want to attack, and harder if you are trying to attack with one hard while holding on with only one other hand.

As for the figure, if it has someone riding it, I would count their weight as encumbrance, to determine how much it messes them up.

RobW · 08-19-2019, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senturian

can't inflict much damage from above unless you can punch thru it's exoskeleton (watch Starship Troopers), so grab onto an eye stalk and pull.

You would have approved, the giant crab was basically plate armored!

Quote:

I'm intrigued in the storyline that lead up to the fight.

A one-off adventure at sea -- Most of our battles were fought aboard a three level ship, and the GM laid out the top deck, gun deck, and hold in advance. Great use of all the megahex tiles. We were transporting a sealed, black, coffin-sized cargo that seemed to cause rot and disease, as well as attracting attacks of all sorts. The giant crab was the main threat for one encounter, and we were very lucky our 2-handed swordsman killed it with a massive double-damage blow. I was the one-legged wizard who summoned the gargoyle.

RobW · 08-19-2019, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarg

T
A smaller figure can attempt HTH and roll as usual, but the result if successful is that the smaller figure falls and is in HTH but the larger figure can opt to decline to fall or be in HTH itself, and can trample the smaller one, and/or walk away during movement if there aren't enough smaller figures to engage it.

As you say, that's what happens when a bigger figure pushes a smaller one.

But on screen, and certainly in my mind's eye, when a smaller figure is deciding to grapple a bigger one, he isn't laying on the ground. More like he is using the bigger one as terrain. Legolas vs the Oliphant, or any of the other tropes where the hero runs up the monster's back and stabs it, holds on to the robot's leg or whatever.

Thinking about this a little more, it's going to depend. If you landed on the right spot of a 10 hex elephant, you could be hard to shake off. A 3-hex giant crab is a walking table compared to a 2-hex tiger.

Adding to your comments, some things to consider case-by-case: How hard to stay on? What are the effects on to-hit and damage rolls? Can the "host" attack the "rider"? Without hurting themselves?! How is the "host" encumbered by the rider?

Skarg · 08-19-2019, 01:16 PM

Yeah, I think it calls for case-by-case consideration of the animal and climber, the hex of the large figure being attempted, and how easy the GM thinks that should be.

I think there's a vast difference over the range of opinions about how hard such things should be. I've seen many GM's indulge players who want to "jump on the monster" and be given special ways to kill it, following the "trope" as you say. In more cases than not, my own reaction tends to be that it's unlikely to be effective rather than dangerous/foolish, and that the larger figure probably could pretty easily effectively hurt the climber more easily than vice versa.

For example, even if someone tries to climb an elephant from someplace its legs, tusks and trunk can't reach, an elephant could, it seems to me, pretty easily flop in the direction of a climber, crushing the climber with the weight of its body. And attacking a large beast with a bare hand or dagger while trying to keep oneself hanging onto it with one other hand, seems to me unlikely to be more effective than staying on the ground and using a regular weapon against it.

Axly Suregrip · 09-04-2019, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobW

More like he is using the bigger one as terrain.

Generally speaking, I would say it depends. Specifically to a 1 hex gargoyle landing on a 3 hex creature, I would say the gargoyle is on it.

Much like when spiders jump on an adventurer. The adventurer cannot just run away. They are on him.

Generally (back to this), it is a judgement call if the smaller creature is just in HTH with the larger (but not committing the larger to HTH) and the larger may leave. Or if the smaller is on and able to stay on the larger.

08-18-2019, 06:12 AM	#1
RobW Join Date: Mar 2018	HTH with multi-hex creatures Last night we had a battle where a summoned gargoyle wanted to HTH a three-hex giant crab. The idea was the gargoyle flies down and grapples with the crab. Not necessarily taking it down to the ground, but beating and clawing it while "riding". Although the general idea seemed reasonable, no one was quite sure what to do. The GM ruled a contest of ST each turn to see if the gargoyle could hold on before attacking (it couldn't). Any other ideas for HTH involving multi-hex creatures?

08-18-2019, 08:40 AM	#2
Senturian Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Mount Bethel, Pennsylvania	Re: HTH with multi-hex creatures can't inflict much damage from above unless you can punch thru it's exoskeleton (watch Starship Troopers), so grab onto an eye stalk and pull. visit Petsmart and watch how crabs eats. You'll probably find yourself on the ground in front of or below the crab if you grab onto a claw that it's trying to pinch you with. pretty sure that's not where you want to be. I'm intrigued in the storyline that lead up to the fight.

08-18-2019, 11:28 AM	#3
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: HTH with multi-hex creatures The rules mention what to do in the opposite situation - with the rules on how a larger figure can Push into smaller figures' hexes to try to knock them down, and the larger figure can then choose whether to trample figures under them, or to enter HTH with them. The smaller figure is allowed to make HTH attacks while under the larger figure, but doesn't make the larger figure fall down or be limited to HTH options with the smaller figure unless the larger figure wants to enter HTH. I tend to rule in a similar way when smaller figures want to be in HTH with larger ones. A smaller figure can attempt HTH and roll as usual, but the result if successful is that the smaller figure falls and is in HTH but the larger figure can opt to decline to fall or be in HTH itself, and can trample the smaller one, and/or walk away during movement if there aren't enough smaller figures to engage it. If a figure wants to do the "I grab on and ride it" thing, I like that not to be an easy thing. I think about what the thing is and how hard it would be to hold on and ride while it is alive and wants you dead. So, after a smaller figure enters HTH with a larger one, make an appropriate roll to not just be on the ground, but hanging onto the larger figure. At least 4/DX difficulty, even using both hands with nothing in those hands, unless it's a horse and you're a horseman and/or have Acrobatics. Additional rolls each turn to keep hanging on, made more difficult if it is doing things that make sense to try to knock you off. Also notice which hex the smaller figure is attached to, and it would take another hard DX roll each turn to try to crawl to another hex closer to some part you want to attack, and harder if you are trying to attack with one hard while holding on with only one other hand. As for the figure, if it has someone riding it, I would count their weight as encumbrance, to determine how much it messes them up.

08-19-2019, 01:16 PM	#6
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: HTH with multi-hex creatures Yeah, I think it calls for case-by-case consideration of the animal and climber, the hex of the large figure being attempted, and how easy the GM thinks that should be. I think there's a vast difference over the range of opinions about how hard such things should be. I've seen many GM's indulge players who want to "jump on the monster" and be given special ways to kill it, following the "trope" as you say. In more cases than not, my own reaction tends to be that it's unlikely to be effective rather than dangerous/foolish, and that the larger figure probably could pretty easily effectively hurt the climber more easily than vice versa. For example, even if someone tries to climb an elephant from someplace its legs, tusks and trunk can't reach, an elephant could, it seems to me, pretty easily flop in the direction of a climber, crushing the climber with the weight of its body. And attacking a large beast with a bare hand or dagger while trying to keep oneself hanging onto it with one other hand, seems to me unlikely to be more effective than staying on the ground and using a regular weapon against it.