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Old 09-26-2019, 03:23 AM   #61
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
My experience is that the legs are not especially hard to hit, but unless your opponent is really sticking his front leg out, you need more reach to hit them, so in a cascading wait situation (which is actually very very common) you lose out timing-wise to someone with an equal length weapon.
I wonder what the best (and easiest) way to show this in the system would be. A further penalty to hit, a bonus to defend against. I agree cascading hits are common in RL and you could adjust them for this, it's just they're not that common in GURPS (well IME)

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
GURPS hit location penalties and random hit tables have to include both projectiles, thrusts with hand weapons, and swings with hand weapons. By definition, they can't cover all three accurately. Nor can they cover things like the ability to strike to the leg with a knife, a one-handed sword, and a quarterstaff (generally speaking, its easier and safer with the longer weapon).

That very good point about it needing to cover missile attacks as well. Thinking about this maybe a way to do this si add some more mods in the expanded posture rules in MA, to show that weapon with certain reaches are better able to hit legs on a standing target than others. (they seem to be more based aounr unarmed attacks combining with postures and locations)

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
It seems that when you're getting that detailed, it becomes a literal matter of inches. For that, arm length seems just as important assuming equal length weapons. That's really getting fiddly.
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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
I took fencing in college. I was not particularly good at it (*maybe* I had a point in it), but in epee, if your opponent stuck his front leg out and didn't keep it mobile, it was by no means hard to attack the thigh or the foot (attacking the lower leg is not easy, it tends to be at a very bad angle).

Epee's an interesting one because it's the only one that allows leg hits to count.

Long ago I did foil (and a bit of sabre), and you were able to have as you say you leg extended quite far out relative to your torso, and it didn't matter.

I have little experience of Epee I wonder is there is much difference in the general fighting posture


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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The general drawbacks are that the legs are more mobile than the body,

Yep, which I guess is what we're trying to define in GURPS terms, so maybe a bonus to defence or retreat.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
and they just aren't as desirable a target (which GURPS models by giving a x1 wounding modifier for impaling attacks).
Not sure about that though, the HP/2 cripple threshold makes them pretty desirable. A crippled leg is IMO pretty much a fight-ender even if it's just in terms of what happens next. Given Cut is still x1.5 injury on legs, generally comes off Sw and if legs are generally speaking less well armoured.


So a ST/HP10 chap swinging a Sw+1 broadsword at another ST/HP10 chap's unarmoured leg, even if injury he can inflict is capped at 6hp, he will cripple the leg two thirds of the time

However this is going to depend on how much you and I see Imp and Cut attacks in our melee combat!
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-26-2019 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 09-26-2019, 05:31 AM   #62
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Epees an interesting one because it's the only one that allows leg hits to count.

Long ago I did foil (and a bit of sabre), and you were able to have as you say you leg extended quite far out relative to your torso, and it didn't matter.
Apparently that was one of the things which became standardized around WW II as the Olympic Games became more important. Until then, sport fencers in different countries had different traditions about whether cuts to the legs were allowed (just like some fencers recommend parrying low cuts, and others recommend withdrawing the leg and counterstriking).

Yes, in combat sports stance is determined by what targets count and which do not (and people often forget to defend against attacks which don't count in their favourite game). GURPS Martial Arts: Gladiators has a rule for exposing one area to protect another.
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:07 AM   #63
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
If it was light enough to be worn under armour then it didn't provide protection. The padded versions were standlone armour, just like the European ones.
Is the Aketon in your "European crusader" write up that Rasna cites, basically just the exception that proves the general rule?

(Leaving aside the point that at DR1 this is the lowest possible protection a thing can have in GURPS terms, so it's really the least thick and cumbersome a padded shirt can get in the system and still be armour! And in reality everything is on a scale, and not hard and fast RPG system based cut offs!)
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Last edited by Tomsdad; 09-26-2019 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:06 AM   #64
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
If it was light enough to be worn under armour then it didn't provide protection. The padded versions were standlone armour, just like the European ones.
In your Loadouts, both the kabadion and the aketon are GURPS Padded Cloth and are worn under mail or lamellar (and the description specifies that they're worn under, not over, the armour). The Kiribati Warrior Loadout shows Medium Layered Cloth worn over Light Layered Cloth, which has two times the thickness and the weight of Padded Cloth (and in this case, the -1 DX for layering sounds right).

IMO which we consider "standalone armour designed for low-tech warfare" should be at least DR 2 (Light Layered Cloth/Leather). DR 1 is something between clothing and proper armour, more likely to be made to be worn with other forms of armour (as the Helmet Padding for example, which is Padded Cloth), or the "cheap quality armour" that abounds among modern reenactors.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:38 AM   #65
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Is the Aketon in your "European crusader" write up that Rasna cites, basically just the exception that proves the general rule?

(Leaving aside the point that at DR1 this is the lowest possible protection a thing can have in GURPS terms, so it's really the least thick and cumbersome padded short can get in the system and still be armour! and in reality everything is on a scale not hard and fast RPG system based cut offs!)
I started researching this over a decade ago. We know a little more about under-armour garments these days. If I were writing it today, I would treat all of these garments like regular clothing, with a DR of no more than 1 vs cutting only.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:07 AM   #66
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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I started researching this over a decade ago. We know a little more about under-armour garments these days. If I were writing it today, I would treat all of these garments like regular clothing, with a DR of no more than 1 vs cutting only.
Cool,

cheers

TD
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:05 AM   #67
Rasna
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Pisa, Tuscany, Italy
Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

The problem with "padded garment" is that can be translated into GURPS different things:

Ordinary Clothing: DR 0*, 1.6 lb.
Arming Doublet: DR 0*, 2 lbs.
Coat: DR 0*, 2.5 lbs.
Light Leather/Winter Clothing: DR 0* (1* vs. cutting), 4 lbs.
Heavy Coat: DR 1*, 5 lbs.
Padded Cloth: DR 1*, 6 lbs.
Light Layered Cloth: DR 2*, 12 lbs.

Arming Doublet is worn with Plate Harness. Padded Cloth is worn as helmet padding or liner. According to Dan writings here:

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
The Loadouts book treated arming garments the same as Light Leather or Winter Clothing, which gave DR 1 vs. cutting attacks only. They won't suffer a DX penalty if specifically tailored to be worn under armour.
Something that gives DR 1* vs. cutting only is heavy as Light Leather or Winter Clothing.
If I remember well, the Tlingit Warrior Loadout includes Light Leather apron and pants worn under the armour and the combination doesn't give any DX penalty.

What if we add another thing, lighter than Padded Cloth, similar to Arming Doublet and made to interact with another layer of armour? Example:

Arming Garment: DR 0* (1* vs. cutting) when worn alone, DR 1* vs. all attacks when is worn with armour which is designed to be don with it, 4 lbs.

Last edited by Rasna; 09-26-2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 09-26-2019, 12:32 PM   #68
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

Maybe aside from weight we need some kind of 'bulk' stat for armor related to its volume (and maybe friction?) to understand how it would impede movement?
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:33 AM   #69
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Maybe aside from weight we need some kind of 'bulk' stat for armor related to its volume (and maybe friction?) to understand how it would impede movement?
This is a good point. The "Holdout" value in part does effectively represent the "bulk" stat of the armour (more rigidity and more thickness does translate into more Holdout penalty since the armour is more difficult to conceal), but its minimum value is 0 and both Padded Cloth and Light Layered Cloth have Holdout 0. Maybe we can assign to Holdout stat of Padded Cloth and Light Leather the possibility to reach a positive value obtainable only via Expert Tailoring and Masterful Tailoring, thus lowering or negating the DX penalty for two layers being worn. DR 2* stuff (Light Layered Cloth, Light Layered Leather, Medium Leather) is definitely too bulky to be an undergarment, and should give a DX penalty if layered with something else, both as undergarment, overgarment or as something that goes between mail and other armour. Since the weight of GURPS low-tech armour and weapons tend to be heavier (up to +50% heavier in some cases, especially for hafted weapons) than their real counterparts, is not easy to translate real items into GURPS stats without affecting the game balance.
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