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Old 09-24-2019, 11:18 AM   #31
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
If you use the design rules in Pyramid rules they will give you a "thickness" when you create armour. You could link some kind sliding scale DX penalty to that.

I.e. so a layer of padded cloth that was DR2 would be rather a lot thicker than a layer of DR3 mail.

Granularity will be a question though, -1DX per layer is already the finest grain the system can do.
Which pyramid? Sounds great. Granularity-wise we could track decimals for how armor would add up, though they for the most part won't matter, you'll just never tie your skill, only roll above it or below it on whole-number dice.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
There's also the question that some other physical aspects might apply, rigidity for instance even if it's not enough to qualify at non-flexible in the system. It is almost impossible to make cloth or leather armour not become more and more rigid as thickness increases.
I just figured if you treated blunt trauma that gets through as crushing damage to the next layer of armor. So if you had a 25 DR cape above a 5 DR shirt hit for 25 crushing, 5 BT-as-crushing hits the shirt, and then 1 BT-as-crushing gets through the shirt to hit the person?

Of course that would make wearing a 5 DR shirt underneath a 25 DR cape superior to wearing a 50 DR cape, so that seems like a problem.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Another great thing about mail* is that in terms of increasing equivalent DR it maintains it's flexibility for far longer than padded or leather.
Another rule to keep in mind which I remember seeing somewhere in Low-Tech is only Rigid armor has Chinks and that Flexible armor doesn't have Chinks, so would that mean as leather moves from flexible to rigid it gains chinks? Seems strange.

Plus aren't there also different rules for whether (when using the optional rules for armor taking damage) armor counts as Homogenous or Unliving depending on whether it's Flexible or Rigid? I can try to find the page numbers later tonight.

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Flexible over rigid is generally not there for purposes that translate as DR -- the way flexible armor stops attacks is dependent on it flexing, so if it's unable to do so, it's significantly less effective.
However diminished, it feels like it ought to do something though... as little as leather "skintight" overtop plate might protect against something like a knife slash, the knife still has to slice through the leather before it can begin to scratch up the metal.
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Which pyramid? Sounds great.
To my knowledge, there are three - Low Tech Armor Design (TL 0-4), Cutting Edge Armor Design (TL 5-9 IIRC, with emphasis on TL 8 and 9), and Ultra Tech Armor Design (TL 9-12). I know the first is in Low Tech II, and the second I think in The Cutting Edge. The last I believe is in one of the Tech and Toys, but can’t recall which one (IV maybe?).

Quote:
I just figured if you treated blunt trauma that gets through as crushing damage to the next layer of armor. So if you had a 25 DR cape above a 5 DR shirt hit for 25 crushing, 5 BT-as-crushing hits the shirt, and then 1 BT-as-crushing gets through the shirt to hit the person?
BT is injury, not damage, so the character is looking at 5 HP lost.

Quote:
Another rule to keep in mind which I remember seeing somewhere in Low-Tech is only Rigid armor has Chinks and that Flexible armor doesn't have Chinks, so would that mean as leather moves from flexible to rigid it gains chinks? Seems strange.
Armor thick enough to lose GURPS Flexible needs to be designed more like plate - one designed like a leather bodysuit would leave the wearer unable to move.

Quote:
However diminished, it feels like it ought to do something though... as little as leather "skintight" overtop plate might protect against something like a knife slash, the knife still has to slice through the leather before it can begin to scratch up the metal.
As I mentioned upthread, half DR may be appropriate.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:05 PM   #33
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

I've worn mail over cladding. It's significantly harder to maneuver in than mail over a Tshirt or over my corduroy arming tunic. Granted neither the mail or cladding were fitted to me with any great skill. So I'm keen on the idea that Custom fitted armor can negate some of the layer penalty.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
However diminished, it feels like it ought to do something though...
It does something, just little enough that the reason it's there is probably not directly to increase the resistance of the armor.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:40 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Black Leviathan View Post
I've worn mail over cladding. It's significantly harder to maneuver in than mail over a Tshirt or over my corduroy arming tunic. Granted neither the mail or cladding were fitted to me with any great skill. So I'm keen on the idea that Custom fitted armor can negate some of the layer penalty.
The problem goes away if you wear the padding over the top like they did at the time. Nothing you wear under mail, should be any thicker than a light sweater. Re-enactors wear way too much padding under their mail.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:43 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
Armour assimilable to GURPS Padded Cloth worn under mail would be the thicker aketons worn by European knights from mid XII to early XV century
All the garments you are thinking of were worn over the top of armor, not underneath.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
One point for comfort though, leg armour? leg armour sucks! Again don't get me wrong there's a range in how much different leg armours can suck, but in general it sucks more than other bits**! (NB I have less experience of leg armour than other armour so maybe I'm missing something or just haven't got as acclimatised to it)
Most leg armour was meant to be worn by cavalry, not infantry. Leg armour is the first thing that gets discarded whenever a soldier has to march for any length of time.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:54 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
There is one other point about mail, beyond the ones Tomsdad pointed out, and that is weight distribution. For a chainmail hauberk or a byrnie, almost all of the weight is borne by the shoulders. For mail chausses (trousers), the weight would normally be at the waist but IIRC braces (suspenders) were used which transferred the weight to the shoulders. The weight of a mail coif would be borne by the crown of the head. There isn't much you can do about any of that, even with tailoring or layering, so that's another reason to jettison mail anywhere it isn't essential.
I'm not athletic at all. But I have easily carried 40+ lbs 8 miles on walks. Being in a cheap-ish backpack, the weight was entirely on my shoulders. All I suffered were some red marks.
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Old 09-24-2019, 10:29 PM   #39
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
BT is injury, not damage, so the character is looking at 5 HP lost.
When using the damage-to-armor rules, it has HP too, so if you look at it like "the shirt is wearing the cape" ?

The weird thing about "injury, not damage" is when we look at stuff like Vulnerability (B161) is it "applies a special wounding multiplier to damage that penetrates your DR"

So if you had a x4 wounding multiplier from Crushing Damage, injury sustained from Blunt Force Trauma wouldn't be increased at all... which seems strange, they seem like very similar ideas.

Funny enough, this would also mean you'd take more damage from cutting weapons that only slightly penetrate DR (converted to crushing) than those which extremely (x2) penetrated it (keeps as cutting)
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Old 09-24-2019, 11:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
When using the damage-to-armor rules, it has HP too, so if you look at it like "the shirt is wearing the cape" ?
Treat armor as immune to blunt trauma - note armor doesn’t get damaged unless you deal damage equal to or exceeding its HP.

Quote:
The weird thing about "injury, not damage" is when we look at stuff like Vulnerability (B161) is it "applies a special wounding multiplier to damage that penetrates your DR"

So if you had a x4 wounding multiplier from Crushing Damage, injury sustained from Blunt Force Trauma wouldn't be increased at all... which seems strange, they seem like very similar ideas.

Funny enough, this would also mean you'd take more damage from cutting weapons that only slightly penetrate DR (converted to crushing) than those which extremely (x2) penetrated it (keeps as cutting)
BT is weird - note it also doesn’t care if what’s behind DR is a solid rib cage or squishy brain, it’s the same Injury either way. Incidentally, you can “reverse” that Vulnerability oddity if you take IT:DR for Crushing, getting more bang for your buck when wearing armor (as this effectively gives you a degree of IT:DR for Cutting at no additional charge).

A rework of BT would be nice, making it into crushing damage, but the above are the rules as they currently stand.
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