[THS] Why Make Bioroids?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They don't. They have sterile and can only be constructed by nanogenesis. In Transhuman Space this is the reason why the Vacs clashed with the EU, when the EU banned bioroid manufacturing they also banned what the Vacs saw as the right to reproduce.

Not all that familiar with THS, unfortunately - I was speaking more of bioroids in general. If bioroids have to be assembled in much the same way as robots, the only immediate advantages are being self-healing and the requisite materials being a bit less uncommon.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Bioroids heal - robots need regular maintenance, and new parts when the old wear out . Bioroids repair themselves.
...

Who cares if your meat sack can repair booboos when it simply would not survive what would cause even minor injury to properly made robots?
Not to mention that in a civilized society, robots are far faster to repair with modular parts. Hypothetical arm loss means an hour or two for a robot, but weeks convalescence post THS super surgery.
At best, it still seems an issue of speed and expense than quality.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I specified _if_ you needed a Bioroid (i.e. human) level of mentality. That's an _SAI_ and dealing with them does indeed have its' own set of ethical minefields. Also concern about them malfing or going rogue in previously unknown ways.

If you can do the job with an NAI that's definitely what you do but comparing bioroids with NAIs is definitely apples and oranges. Or possibly alibananas.

SAIs are needed where mildly autistic people wouldn't work. And LAIs do sound a bit aspie to me. I don't think that's quite as many jobs as you may think. (Generic you, not you specifically.)
SAIs seem WAY over-designed for nearly every job they could do except those for which that whole ethical dilemma would make them not so sutiable for in the first place; suicide missions of military or scientific exploration types.
But THS has only three classes to work with and for Bioroids to compete with. It's hard to imagine a plausible society that's fine enslaving modified flesh people but not actual computer programs regardless of human-like psychology.
Without invoking some draconian religion/cultural block, bioroids seem like a niche market of Bladerunner creepiness especially since about equally effective machines exist in setting.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Not all that familiar with THS, unfortunately - I was speaking more of bioroids in general. If bioroids have to be assembled in much the same way as robots, the only immediate advantages are being self-healing and the requisite materials being a bit less uncommon.

I think it could matter too as we can all invoke expensive-ium without needing any unobtanium for high end A.I.s
There's also expense of the assembling machines themselves. Maybe bioroid manufacture doesn't require the same level of precision as cells kind of know where to go. This may lower the price so "Mom And Pop" boiroid businesses could exist where only a few massive S.A.I. computer factories can afford the start up costs.
We all know what happens when monopolies exist; quality goes down and price goes up beyond "true cost". That seems like a somewhat plausible way to keep fleshies competitive.
(I know jack all about economics, so these ideas may seem just as absurd to an expert as rapid Martian terraforming does to some of us.)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Not all that familiar with THS, unfortunately - I was speaking more of bioroids in general. If bioroids have to be assembled in much the same way as robots, the only immediate advantages are being self-healing and the requisite materials being a bit less uncommon.

GURPS Biotech p.26 defines bioroid as "humanoid beings created using biogenesis" and further goes on to state that the are sterile by default, but can be built able to function as surrogate mothers, or with reproductive organs that produce gametes with human DNA (the offspring in that case aren't obviously bioroids though). The bioroid metatrait on p. 214 therefore includes Sterile.

You need TL12 neogenesis on p. 27 to make viable artificial species.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

GURPS Biotech p.26 defines bioroid as "humanoid beings created using biogenesis" and further goes on to state that the are sterile by default, but can be built able to function as surrogate mothers, or with reproductive organs that produce gametes with human DNA (the offspring in that case aren't obviously bioroids though). The bioroid metatrait on p. 214 therefore includes Sterile.

You need TL11 neogenesis on p. 27 to make viable artificial species.

Incorrect.

With our late TL8 technology TODAY we can do cross species IVF via blood cells. THS has external wombs, and thus they can produce as many bioroids as they wish once they have a viable gene-line even if they are sterile in production (They would probably want to- you don't want your bioroids busy in auto-production.

Thus a THS bioroid 'factory' would seem to have more in common with a chicken farm then it would with a robot assembly line; which has advantages in that they have multiple cheap incubation chaimbers instead of a single massive assembly line.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You need TL11 neogenesis on p. 27 to make viable artificial species.

No, you just need TL 2-3 agronomy and a lot of patience. THS has artificial species, any parahuman (rather than bioroid) that is incapable of interbreeding with mainline human is an artificial species.

Originally Posted by starslayer

Incorrect.

With our late TL8 technology TODAY we can do cross species IVF via blood cells. THS has external wombs, and thus they can produce as many bioroids as they wish once they have a viable gene-line even if they are sterile in production

This misunderstands what THS bioroids are. The essential distinction is that a parahuman has a viable gene-line, a bioroid does not; it's a chimera or otherwise unable to grow in a natural way.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by starslayer

Incorrect.

No, that's what the book says. I am looking right at it. On what basis am I incorrect?

With our late TL8 technology TODAY we can do cross species IVF via blood cells.

Unlikely, mammalian blood cells are anucleic, and cross-species fertilization is generally impossible, except in some very specific examples of closely related species.

THS has external wombs, and thus they can produce as many bioroids as they wish once they have a viable gene-line even if they are sterile in production (They would probably want to- you don't want your bioroids busy in auto-production.

If you grow the organism from a germline in a womb, by definition it isn't a bioroid. A bioroid is built tissue-by-tissue via biogenesis, that is just what a bioroid is. In fact there's no reason for the different tissues of a bioroid to even share the same genetics! Additionally, they are constructed as adults. Normal germline reproduction simply isn't capable of producing a complex chimera of this kind, or of producing an adult organism without growth from a zygote.

Thus a THS bioroid 'factory' would seem to have more in common with a chicken farm then it would with a robot assembly line; which has advantages in that they have multiple cheap incubation chaimbers instead of a single massive assembly line]

The vignette on Transhuman Space p. 7 describes a factory, "The interior was filled with gene sequencers and biogenesis tanks. They held skeletal half-formed, and fully adult bioroids."; p. 76 describes biogenesis and defines "bioroid" exactly as Biotech does. The glossary definitions of biogenesis and bioroids on p. 204 are likewise identical.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

No, you just need TL 2-3 agronomy and a lot of patience. THS has artificial species, any parahuman (rather than bioroid) that is incapable of interbreeding with mainline human is an artificial species.

Yes, conventional germline genetic engineering (or even, as you say, selective breeding) allows the modification of existing organisms into new species. This is something different, at TL12 neogenesis allows the assembly of an adult member of a viable artificial species, from scratch. This really shouldn't be a matter of debate, that is just what it says on Biotech p. 27, "The ultimate expression of biogenesis (at TL12) would be to create an entirely new viable species, fully capable of self-reproduction."

[scc]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Because they can't, at least not all tasks. Some while ago, when this question was asked the #th time, I brought up the job table, and something like 40% jobs were better done by bioroids, and that's not factoring in the fact that biochauvinists may object to an even larger number of jobs performed by AIs.

Bioroids are relatively cheap, relatively smart/imaginative/empathic, and have bodies that tend to be relateable for the majority population. A SAI+cyberdoll would be much more expensive.

They're also reasonably robust for their price. A combat-trained Submissa in a battlesuit is only slightly inferior to a full-metal RATS in terms of robustness, but saves a lot of money.

You know why Clarke-1 is growing to become a monopoly in space construction whereever they work? Because they're economically superior to a cybershells/uplifts/baselines-in-space-suits workforce.

Thanks Vicky, this is very interesting, it suggests that creating AI isn't as easy as things would suggest in THS