One piece of the THS future is underway

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Aren't militaries fundamentally based on reinforcing the human instinct to from us vs. them groups? Usually to absurd unthinking levels dangerously close to that of soccer hooligans?

Do you mean "to form us vs. them..."?

If so, then not really. While demonising the opponent in a war seems to be a part of US civilian political culture, it takes too long for a standing military to rely on it, and other cultures don't seem to require it. Of course, it sometime happens, which is one of the causes of war crimes, but a professional military tries to keep it limited ... to avoid committing war crimes.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Do you mean "to form us vs. them..."?

If so, then not really. While demonising the opponent in a war seems to be a part of US civilian political culture, it takes too long for a standing military to rely on it, and other cultures don't seem to require it. Of course, it sometime happens, which is one of the causes of war crimes, but a professional military tries to keep it limited ... to avoid committing war crimes.

Yes, I meant form rather than from. It's a common typo of mine.

Actually I meant the making of a military into an US beyond all reason. Demonizing the enemy into a THEM occurs naturally, sadly.
Fellow members of a military organization will side together despite opposing view points, religions, general character, and otherwise violently opposed mode of thought and personality. From what I've seen at least.
Like fellow members of a fraternity, or fans of particular sports teams, but taken to 11.
Even if they don't hate fans of other teams inherently, they will often give far more trust initially and sometimes long past sense to those rooting for the same team.
I'm not knocking it as a basic human instinct. Without it, we wouldn't have gone much further than small bands of hunter/gatherers.

Why war crimes occur, and how much and what a society can do to minimize them is an emotional topic unlikely to be resolved any time soon.
Other than that humans are dicks, especially to other humans, and doubly especially when stressed.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by johndallman

If so, then not really. While demonising the opponent in a war seems to be a part of US civilian political culture, .

Why attribute that to us alone? I think everyone does it.

Sometimes your enemy really was Hitler too.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Why attribute that to us alone? I think everyone does it. Sometimes your enemy really was Hitler too.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Apologies! Everyone does it some of the time, but the USA appears to always do it. The British have, for example, not demonised Iraqis or Iranians in recent decades.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Actually I meant the making of a military into an US beyond all reason. Demonizing the enemy into a THEM occurs naturally, sadly.
Fellow members of a military organization will side together despite opposing view points, religions, general character, and otherwise violently opposed mode of thought and personality. From what I've seen at least.

This is a natural consequence of combat and is probably necessary for survival. You need to trust the person upon whom your life depends.

[ClayDowling]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Apologies! Everyone does it some of the time, but the USA appears to always do it. The British have, for example, not demonised Iraqis or Iranians in recent decades.

There are still some hard feelings over an embassy. Not made better by Iran's annual Death to America day. Although to be fair, the CIA has done a lovely job of making sure those fires don't die down too. In Master of Disguise (from which the movie Argo was developed) Tony Mendez is pretty open about the CIA's purpose in publishing those stories.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This is a natural consequence of combat and is probably necessary for survival. You need to trust the person upon whom your life depends.

You need to trust others for piece of mind and comfort. But that's not quite the same as simply accepting the risks inherent in your survival depending on others and their unknown natures.
The word trust has two very different meanings to me. One predicated on belief, and the other on hope with knowledge of its unlikeliness of actually happening.
I can trust that my life mate won't hurt our cats. Because I know with logical certainty that she would die rather than do so.
I can also trust that her brother wouldn't hurt them either. But logically, knowing of his previous history of animal abuse, I could only hope he wouldn't.

Militaries breed the irrational belief when many could get by with the hope version of trust. Assuming the ability to compartmentalize the never knowing existential dread inherent in such a conscious understanding of your own isolation. Having never even been in a real fight, let alone mortal danger, I can only guess at how important any feeling of safety would be, no matter how irrational.
I hope it's clear that irrationality is not an insult. It is an aspect of complex animal nature, and necessary for mental health, paradoxically enough.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

Personally I find myself with some sympathy for Iran. They're a moderately stable country finding themselves in an increasingly difficult situation, only some of which is of their own making.

I have sympathy for the people of nations. Governments, and really organizations in general, never have their citizens' best interests at heart.

[sir_pudding]

With respect, Flyndaran, I think it's possible I know more about the subject than you do.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

The UK has had its own problems with Iran but somebody has to let it go or the fighting will never stop. The USA seems particularly bad at being able to let it go.

The Iranians are unlikely to let their problems with the UK go away any time soon. I've heard that the word for "British" means "Untrustworthy" in modern colloquial Farsi.