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Old 06-02-2018, 09:59 AM   #101
Jim Kane
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Caveat: I'm against this plan...
Just for the record, I am neither for, nor against the idea myself David; however, I am fascinated enough by the inherent parameters informed by Ak_Aramis' post, to see if we could collectively *solve* the design-problem and the challenge of coming up with a satisfying solution, which would meet the parameters he laid out, and - more importantly - inhibit players from by-passing that same engineered solution by their potential employment less-than-honest motivations in character creation; IF such thing were adopted - as Ty pointed out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
...really more of a thought experiment...
In other words, if it *had* to be done, and we had to provide the solution, how could we make it work?

Working directly from your thoughts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
  • Expensive: If it's cheap it can be attached on the side of a character that's actually something else. If you want it to be a defining feature of a character then it has to cost, or it has to impose inconvenient handicaps, or something of the kind.
  • Useful: If it's going to be expensive then it has to do things that aren't just healing. Useful things that players will value.
  • Fun: Implementing the powers of a priest must be an interesting and fun thing to do. Not just routinely and industrially fixing problems but difficult tasks that might succeed or fail and it matters which.
Why could we not have this special character-type, pay the cost of invoking the healing spell, not with ST, as per normal, but with EP instead?

Think about this: if we focus on your point about *useful*, Priests should gain EP for "doing priestly things"; therefore, the more priestly things they do, the more EP that character earns, and then the more healing they can do, AND it stops a priest-character from just being a low-combat value tag-along, waiting to heal people in the Adventure Party.

Now that Priest character has proper motivation to run-around trying to collect converts, perform sacrifices, distribute charity, save people from themselves, or bay at the moon, etc. or whatever it is their Mystery Deity-of-Choice demands of them - because that is how they gain EP, which in turn in builds up the *fuel supply* which they expend to power their priestly magics with, as opposed to using ST - and makes these healing priests distinctly different from where and how the standard TFT wizard powers his spells - as an internal logic bonus.

Thoughts?

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-02-2018 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-02-2018, 11:54 AM   #102
JLV
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

So what I'm getting out of this, barring the "priestly healing" part of the discussion, is that some people don't want magical healing, and some people do.

Here's an idea -- let Steve add whatever healing spell seems best to him for his game system and then either use it in your game, or don't, as you prefer.

Personally, I'll use it. Because as tomc pointed out, I like my heroes to keep on heroing too. This is a fantasy game, not Dr. Welby, MD.
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Old 06-02-2018, 01:37 PM   #103
Anthony
 
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Problem here is that this makes healing an economic affair.
Not really, rations are pretty cheap. The limitation is that they're reasonably heavy and not available in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 06-02-2018, 01:53 PM   #104
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: HEAL spell?

This is definitely one of those things where the best a designer can hope for is to satisfy the most prominent plurality (or, better, his/her self!), and let everyone else house rule as they see fit.
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Old 06-02-2018, 02:59 PM   #105
GlennDoren
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
So what I'm getting out of this, barring the "priestly healing" part of the discussion, is that some people don't want magical healing, and some people do.

Here's an idea -- let Steve add whatever healing spell seems best to him for his game system and then either use it in your game, or don't, as you prefer.

Personally, I'll use it. Because as tomc pointed out, I like my heroes to keep on heroing too. This is a fantasy game, not Dr. Welby, MD.
I was about to suggest this, then read your comment.

It's pretty interesting reading through the heated debates re: healing spells. In the end, this is a game, and it should let people play the way they want to play. If no healing spells are desired, simply don't allow them. And if adventures/microquests are published, they can dictate whether healing spells are allowed (via some fictional/gameworld rationale, of course ;).

I think it's better that Steve offer official options, and then players/GMs can decide whether they play with the healing spell option. At least, for those that DO want healing spells, they have an official set of rules they can trust have been designed with balance/play in mind by the actual game designer (SJ).
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Old 06-02-2018, 05:38 PM   #106
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by GlennDoren View Post
I was about to suggest this, then read your comment.

It's pretty interesting reading through the heated debates re: healing spells. In the end, this is a game, and it should let people play the way they want to play. If no healing spells are desired, simply don't allow them. And if adventures/microquests are published, they can dictate whether healing spells are allowed (via some fictional/gameworld rationale, of course ;).

I think it's better that Steve offer official options, and then players/GMs can decide whether they play with the healing spell option. At least, for those that DO want healing spells, they have an official set of rules they can trust have been designed with balance/play in mind by the actual game designer (SJ).
I'm not a big fan of variantism. It causes problems when playing with other groups and vice versa, and when designing "balanced" adventures and programmed modules, etc.

If there is something in TFT that is official, it needs to have been playtested and vetted well, or the product is degraded, and ultimately will fail to some degree, or completely.

For now, for me, with my hard-earned retirement dollars in short supply, and maybe this applies to younger folks just trying to make the rent, reputation means a lot.

If SJ authors a Death Test III, I will probably buy it without too much research. But if that trust is lost with poorly conceived or ill play-tested ingredients, that trust is broken and brand loyalty diminishes.

The Microsoft model was, program it, sell it to the public, and let them test it for us, suckers. We'll address their concerns in version 2, and sell that to them, with new "features". That never-ending approach makes for a lot of bad blood in the end.

If Healing spells are put into TFT, they better be balanced and playtested, not just a whim of the author.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:06 PM   #107
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Default Boo Hiss to variantism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
I'm not a big fan of variantism. It causes problems when playing with other groups and vice versa, and when designing "balanced" adventures and programmed modules, etc. ...

If Healing spells are put into TFT, they better be balanced and playtested, not just a whim of the author.
Hi Kirk, everyone.
I totally agree. 99% of the new players will use the game as written, and most of the rest of us will use this healing spell. People creating dungeons will assume that it exists and plan for it.

Steve Jackson's spell is well written, (it covers all the cases, no unanswered questions). But it is one of the less interesting healing spell variations I've seen. I wish that something more interesting was preposed.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-02-2018, 06:59 PM   #108
GlennDoren
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: HEAL spell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
I'm not a big fan of variantism. It causes problems when playing with other groups and vice versa, and when designing "balanced" adventures and programmed modules, etc.

If there is something in TFT that is official, it needs to have been playtested and vetted well, or the product is degraded, and ultimately will fail to some degree, or completely.

For now, for me, with my hard-earned retirement dollars in short supply, and maybe this applies to younger folks just trying to make the rent, reputation means a lot.

If SJ authors a Death Test III, I will probably buy it without too much research. But if that trust is lost with poorly conceived or ill play-tested ingredients, that trust is broken and brand loyalty diminishes.

The Microsoft model was, program it, sell it to the public, and let them test it for us, suckers. We'll address their concerns in version 2, and sell that to them, with new "features". That never-ending approach makes for a lot of bad blood in the end.

If Healing spells are put into TFT, they better be balanced and playtested, not just a whim of the author.
Completely agreed. As said, I expect anything Steve adds/modifies for TFT v2 will be done with care and properly vetted/tested. It's clear in this forum there are those adamantly FOR Healing spells, as well as those adamantly AGAINST. My hunch: the average gamer will prefer to have good options (i.e. healing spells) to avoid "multi-month healing time" in-between adventures. Having to explain why your group can't continue an adventure for weeks/months due to healing just doesn't make for fun gaming for "the average gamer" (my opinion of course). Which is why I suggest: if your particular group doesn't want the "fallback" of healing magic, you have the option to forbid its use.

I do understand the desire for "more interesting" healing spells. I'm all for the multi-level spells available at multiple IQ levels. And if these spells have other side effects from their use, cool.

As far as the MSFT analogy: I get that (especially after having been a developer at MSFT for 8 years). However, SJG doesnt have the same deep pockets (nor userbase) of a MSFT ;) So yes, it should be vetted/tested--but it will likely require more of a "judgement" call on SJG's part, as opposed to strenuous user-testing. And I say that based upon the sense I get re: this upcoming release not being a major V2 overhaul--rather, a faster "reprint" to test the market. And yes, that also implies changes like this new Healing Spell could be risky without proper testing. I suspect that's why SJ is keeping the change relatively simple right now.
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Old 06-02-2018, 08:05 PM   #109
Jim Kane
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Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by GlennDoren View Post
... And yes, that also implies changes like this new Healing Spell could be risky without proper testing. I suspect that's why SJ is keeping the change relatively simple right now...
That is the *key* right there. As one who is neither for, nor against, my overriding concern is not upsetting the fine mojo imbued into this very special game; regardless of which way it ultimately goes. That's why I feel it is critical at this time, that we run down *all* the submitted options, collectively as a group working together - be it for or against - and leave our raw findings for SJ's perusal and digestion, as he sees fit. As no one person in the history of the world has ever had a monopoly on all the great ideas and unique perspectives. It takes a strong team up-front - and I believe we have that here in spades - and then, leave him to come to his own decision in his own time, in his own way.

That's all we really can do to help.

JK
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:16 PM   #110
GlennDoren
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: HEAL spell?

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
It takes a strong team up-front - and I believe we have that here in spades - and then, leave him to come to his own decision in his own time, in his own way.

That's all we really can do to help.

JK
Agreed. This discussion is great for helping get all the options/issues out on the table, and then Steve can make a judgement call.
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