Digital Mind Question

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Of course, there are abilities that would be ridiculous to turn into perks for supers, such as a limousine's built-in mini-bar.

I'd bet there's been more than one example of a character who would have a Perk or greater ability along those lines, really.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

My view is that going by the straightforward words precludes that disagreement.

A straightforward reading includes the context provided by the entire document, sometimes other closely related documents, what the words meant when the work was written, and clarifications offered by the author(s). As the author(s) is (are) human, we also must allow that sometimes things aren't written as well as they could be, or even could contain actual errors.

In this case, when Digital Mind is allowed in a setting and IQ 30 is allowed in the setting, one should still seek GM approval that these Exotic traits are permitted together. Digital Mind involves multiple "switches" for the setting, so besides permission to take it, one should see if the cost has changed, and carefully consider whether it is worth the CP.

In the specific case of Godslayer, he's stumbled upon some potential rule/trait interactions that are too good to be true (literally): that he can take Digital Mind for 5 CP, gain everything that goes with that, then take the Accessory Perk so that a single CP buys him a computer he can access (or worst case scenario, his teammates can access while he's safely stored as offline data) that at TL9 should be an SM+21, quadrillion dollar piece of equipment, but is instead small enough to fit into his (approximately) SM 0 body. When it was pointed out that this isn't how it works, he wanted to know what Digital Mind actually provided, hence some of the other comments.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Otaku

A straightforward reading includes the context provided by the entire document, sometimes other closely related documents, what the words meant when the work was written, and clarifications offered by the author(s). As the author(s) is (are) human, we also must allow that sometimes things aren't written as well as they could be, or even could contain actual errors.

We don't have any particular reason or any statement from the authors to suggest what they wrote is not what they meant.

In this case, when Digital Mind is allowed in a setting and IQ 30 is allowed in the setting, one should still seek GM approval that these Exotic traits are permitted together.

A GM whose setting or house rule changes the way the RAW works should make that clear to players.

... rule/trait interactions that are too good to be true (literally): that he can take Digital Mind for 5 CP, gain everything that goes with that, then take the Accessory Perk so that a single CP buys him a computer he can access (or worst case scenario, his teammates can access while he's safely stored as offline data) that at TL9 should be an SM+21, quadrillion dollar piece of equipment, but is instead small enough to fit into his (approximately) SM 0 body. When it was pointed out that this isn't how it works, he wanted to know what Digital Mind actually provided, hence some of the other comments.

This paragraph confuses me. I don't see what is too good to be true about something written right in the book. We don't say, 'Oh, well at TL8 Infravision must mean a bulky set of goggles'.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Well, that's partly true, but not complete.

Those perks come from GURPS Supers, which I wrote. Kromm and I discussed them explicitly when I was writing it. And what we agreed was that if an ability could be conferred by an Accessory, then it could also be conferred on a super as an exotic perk thematically appropriate to the super's powers. So we have Burrower, Climbing Line, Generator, Ignition, Illumination, Perfume, Periscope, and Striking Surface, each of which corresponds to a possible Accessory. In other words, where the exotic perks that Accessory "apes" originally came from was looking at a list of devices that fell under the definition of Accessory and defining perks that could be part of powers.

For example, Generator says "You can produce a steady flow of direct current, comparable to the output of a battery," and Illumination says "You can generate a lighted area, as if carrying a flashlight."

By that principle, since Accessory: Computer is possible, it's also possible to have an exotic ability that grants the same capabilities as a computer, without being a computer. In fact, that is exactly what would be involved in the "biocomputer" ability: Your body wouldn't literally incorporate a computer such as you might buy or have built, but would have organs that gave it the same capabilities.

Of course, there are abilities that would be ridiculous to turn into perks for supers, such as a limousine's built-in mini-bar. But I don't think "able to access the Internet and run standard utility software" is necessarily ridiculous.

Interesting, but I don't think this provenance unseats my point as the rules stand now.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

This paragraph confuses me. I don't see what is too good to be true about something written right in the book. We don't say, 'Oh, well at TL8 Infravision must mean a bulky set of goggles'.

You can't just read one passage in the book. You have to read the rest of the book. In this case, "By default, you inhabit a body that includes a computer with Complexity equal to at least half your IQ" has to be read in the context of Computers, p. B472, which defines what a computer is and what Complexity means. That passage says that a high-end desktop computer is Complexity 4 at mid-TL8. Therefore, at that TL (the current TL when the Basic Set came out!), no desktop-size computer could run an IQ 10 human-equivalent Digital Mind, and far less an IQ 30 supermind. You would need a much larger system, one that could not plausibly fit into a human body.

No one passage in a book can define the full meaning of every word it contains. There is always reference to other passages, explicit or implied. If you don't read those other passages, you can't count on interpreting the one passage correctly. This is exactly as Otaku said: "A straightforward reading includes the context provided by the entire document, sometimes other closely related documents, what the words meant when the work was written, and clarifications offered by the author(s). As the author(s) is (are) human, we also must allow that sometimes things aren't written as well as they could be, or even could contain actual errors."

As someone who's written a lot of GURPS books that contain game mechanics, I've dealt a lot with working out what is allowable under the rules. It's never just "this page says X." It's always "this page says X, and this other page says Y, and this other page limits Y to P and Q, and so we need a reading of X that doesn't conflict with what is said elsewhere." And the detailed rules in, for example, Ultra-Tech come from working out those implications.

Per Ultra-Tech, first, the biggest computer is a megacomputer, which is +4 complexity from a desktop system, or Complexity 8 at TL8. Second, you get +1 Complexity at TL9, +2 at TL10, and +1 at TL11 and at TL12. That takes you to Complexity 13, which will get you to IQ 26, in a 40,000 lb. machine that needs a large ship to transport it. A human-sized computer at the same TL can get to IQ 18. All of those are published rules that amplify what the Basic Set says. So no, you can't get to IQ 30 with any computer defined in the rules.

Of course you're free to set aside the default and say that your Digital Mind runs on a system that isn't a computer as defined in the Basic Set or Ultra-Tech. The reference to biocomputers and implants can be read as suggesting ways to do so. I would also consider allowing a crystalline intelligence to have a Digital Mind, at least in a campaign with superscience and powers. But at that point you're no longer talking about computers as described in the Basic Set or Ultra-Tech.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by whswhs

You can't just read one passage in the book. You have to read the rest of the book. In this case, "By default, you inhabit a body that includes a computer with Complexity equal to at least half your IQ" has to be read in the context of Computers, p. B472, which defines what a computer is and what Complexity means.

We should trust that the writers were fully aware of the rules for computers and would have been able to indicate if those rules constrained the clear meaning of what they chose to write. We should give them the deference to know their métier and to be able to write what they meant. If there were some ambiguity then chasing down meaning might be necessary, but that's not the case.

That passage says that a high-end desktop computer is Complexity 4 at mid-TL8. Therefore, at that TL (the current TL when the Basic Set came out!), no desktop-size computer could run an IQ 10 human-equivalent Digital Mind, and far less an IQ 30 supermind. You would need a much larger system, one that could not plausibly fit into a human body.

GURPs exotic Advantages are not constrained by realism. It makes no sense to be talking about IQ 30 and then worrying about the real world dimensions of a computer at one specific TL. Look at Infravision. It gives you Infravision, not Infravision-subject-to-the-technological-constraints-of-RW-TL8.

But hey, if people feel that Digital Mind should work differently than as written, they are free to make house rules.

[MrTim]

Originally Posted by whswhs

* If you have Digital Mind, and you buy Mind Reading, for example, does that let you read the minds of computers, rather than those of humans?

Only if you buy the Cybernetic Only limitation (B70).

* If you don't have Digital Mind, can you acquire Mind Reading (Digital) as an ability? Does it have an extra cost?

Sure you could acquire it, and I can't see any reason it would cost extra.

* Alternatively, can you buy Digital Mind with Switchable? Or Compartmentalized Mind with one compartment having Digital Mind? How would you do a human/computer synnoesis?

I'd probably do either Compartmentalized Mind with only one having Digital Mind (possibly Linked and Switchable, but I'm inclined to think those shouldn't be necessary) or Digital Mind plus some Resistance or Immunity to some of the things a Digital Mind is normally vulnerable to.

[Ulzgoroth]

I think it's fundamentally erroneous to interpret the 'by default' sentence as indicating that this is either required or included. I'd contest that the Digital Mind advantage does not give you any computational capabilities whatsoever.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I think it's fundamentally erroneous to interpret the 'by default' sentence as indicating that this is either required or included. I'd contest that the Digital Mind advantage does not give you any computational capabilities whatsoever.

It depends what you mean by "computational capabilities."

For example, many people can see a ball thrown, or batted, or kicked, anticipate its trajectory, and intercept it. Now, that trajectory is defined by a mathematical relationship, one that starts with a conic section and then introduces modifiers for air resistance and gyroscopic effects and other things. So in one sense the brain is doing computation to move the body on a line that intersects the ball's arc. But if you asked most athletes, they couldn't tell you the exact geometric coordinates involved, and even a physicist might not be able to define the equation of flight, given that some of the variables are very hard to measure.

Digital Mind involves internal computations that generate the mental processes. But it may not involve inputting or outputting any numbers as numbers, for example.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

We should trust that the writers were fully aware of the rules for computers and would have been able to indicate if those rules constrained the clear meaning of what they chose to write. We should give them the deference to know their métier and to be able to write what they meant. If there were some ambiguity then chasing down meaning might be necessary, but that's not the case.

For one thing, that's a completely unsound way to read any document. No one sentence, or paragraph, or chapter, can say everything. The writer is entitled to assume that you have read the rest of the document, and will put it all together. You can't just say "the writer said X here, and I know what X means." You don't necessarily know what X means in this specific document. And the writer can't just stop in the middle of telling you about P and Q, during which they had to mention X, to spell out what X means—not if they want to avoid infinite bloat.

And for another thing, having consulted with Sean Punch about GURPS rules many times, I find it a familiar experience to discuss rule A in place X with him, and have him point to some other rule elsewhere in the book, or even in a different book, as making it clear what rule A is actually saying. So that abstract principle seems to me clearly to apply to GURPS books.

GURPs exotic Advantages are not constrained by realism. It makes no sense to be talking about IQ 30 and then worrying about the real world dimensions of a computer at one specific TL. Look at Infravision. It gives you Infravision, not Infravision-subject-to-the-technological-constraints-of-RW-TL8.

I'm sorry, but that's a false definition. The definition of "exotic" is "traits that ordinary humans cannot have without ultra-tech body modification or similar tampering." There are all sorts of traits that ordinary humans cannot have, but that are still constrained by realism for the entities that do have them: a rock's compressive strength, a plant's photosynthesis, an electric fish's electric field sense, a helicopter's hovering, or a computer's data processing. Traits that conflict with natural law are not "exotic" but "supernatural."