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Old 01-30-2013, 07:31 PM   #21
Matthias Wasser
 
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

I would continue to love my partner if she had a sex change operation, but if she lost her memories and became an infant I fail to see what would remain of her. When we say unsaved and undamned souls in In Nomine get reincarnated rather than annihilated, it's not clear to me what that means.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:47 PM   #22
William
 
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

At least 1 Celestial Force remains consistently with the being throughout the reincarnation cycle. If a relic is designed to activate only when in contact with a body currently being used by a certain soul, that relic would respond to a reincarnation of the original person, because the soul is the same.

Although memories are mostly lost with Ethereal Forces, all life histories of reincarnated humans can be access by an angel with Yves' Past Lives attunement. Powerful experiences possibly imprint themselves on Celestial Forces in a less direct fashion than accessible memories.

Although canon is to my knowledge silent on this issue, I suspect that Geas-hooks and celestial resources such as Rites and Attunements survive reincarnation, although of course an infant will not know that they possess these things.

As a practical matter of real life, I am in agreement with you that someone who has irretrievably lost their memories and changed bodies (along with the neural structure they had developed over their life) has no portion of the original person left. However, this is because I do not believe in an immortal soul, which is some supernatural "extra" beyond either of these things: which is, of course, a crucial element of an In Nomine game.
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:20 PM   #23
Matthias Wasser
 
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

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Originally Posted by William View Post
At least 1 Celestial Force remains consistently with the being throughout the reincarnation cycle. If a relic is designed to activate only when in contact with a body currently being used by a certain soul, that relic would respond to a reincarnation of the original person, because the soul is the same.

Although memories are mostly lost with Ethereal Forces, all life histories of reincarnated humans can be access by an angel with Yves' Past Lives attunement. Powerful experiences possibly imprint themselves on Celestial Forces in a less direct fashion than accessible memories.

Although canon is to my knowledge silent on this issue, I suspect that Geas-hooks and celestial resources such as Rites and Attunements survive reincarnation, although of course an infant will not know that they possess these things.
Hmm, all possibilities for inheritable traits, yeah.

Quote:
As a practical matter of real life, I am in agreement with you that someone who has irretrievably lost their memories and changed bodies (along with the neural structure they had developed over their life) has no portion of the original person left. However, this is because I do not believe in an immortal soul, which is some supernatural "extra" beyond either of these things: which is, of course, a crucial element of an In Nomine game.
As a side point, one of the interesting features I've always liked about In Nomine is that it has a non-reductionist ontology, and (semi-)immortal souls, but the immortal souls themselves are perfectly reductionist.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:38 PM   #24
Archangel Beth
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

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I chime in to provide a different perspective and politely remind our estimeed line editor, and the other US posters, that Hollywood clichès to the contrary, America is not the world,
And I remind, bluntly, that the forum servers are located in the US, the company is located in the US, and therefore all must adhere to American laws -- and, to some extent on certain topics, it must stay WELL WITHIN certain boundaries. If you are not a US citizen, then you may not understand, bone-deep, the potential seriousness of the topic. Please don't assume that I'm underestimating it.

The derailing post that I have partly quoted has been deleted. It's off-topic and I've already made my stance clear. Please don't make me close this thread.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:40 AM   #25
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

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At least 1 Celestial Force remains consistently with the being throughout the reincarnation cycle.
Hmmmmm... Could somebody with two Celestial Forces be reincarnated twice at the same time, with one Celestial Force in each of the two "new" people?

If so, that could throw a curveball into the plot, when a third child shows up and shows signs of becoming part of the loving relationship...
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:02 PM   #26
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

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Hmmmmm... Could somebody with two Celestial Forces be reincarnated twice at the same time, with one Celestial Force in each of the two "new" people?

If so, that could throw a curveball into the plot, when a third child shows up and shows signs of becoming part of the loving relationship...
Why would heaven tear apart a soul it liked? Are souls like flatworms that way? In any game, that concept is a bit disturbing.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:14 PM   #27
Matthias Wasser
 
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Why would heaven tear apart a soul it liked?
I count at least three implicit assumptions here.
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Old 01-31-2013, 01:58 PM   #28
William
 
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

I doubt souls can split or fuse in such ways, anyway. They're almost certainly atomic in the literal etymological sense.

ETA: Unless you have a heretical demon pot. But those can't even be special ordered.

Last edited by William; 01-31-2013 at 01:58 PM. Reason: ETA: Unless you have a heretical demon pot. But those can't even be special ordered.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:34 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser View Post
I count at least three implicit assumptions here.
I wouldn't think souls are good at escaping hell.
If heaven didn't like a soul why would it let a soul reincarnate at all?
How would a soul "naturally" split and not immediately reconstituted by chance or angels?

Either way, the flatworm soul doesn't jibe with the great chain of being style enlightenment most versions of heaven-y afterlives require. At least from my limited knowledge of the subject.

It certainly fits other mythologies' ideas of soul parts though. Ritual cannibalism and corporeal songs could result in the birth of a mafioso child having the Ka of an Egyptian sorcerer, and the Po of a Chinese Triad gangbanger. Ha!
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Old 01-31-2013, 05:36 PM   #30
robkelk
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Default Re: Reincarnation & Marriage

Since when did Heaven (or Hell) "let" souls reincarnate? Reincarnation is something that happens (but not the only thing that can happen) if a soul doesn't go to either Celestial realm.

Back to my earlier question: Are souls indivisible, or can Forces come loose from them one way or another? William appears to be in the "they're indivisible" camp. But if they aren't, then my suggested plot complication could happen... and even in places where same-sex marriage is legal (waves from Canada), marriage is something that happens between two people, not three.

This plot complication definitely would not fit in a bright campaign.
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