Improved One-Handed Lift - Perk or Greater Advantage?

[vitruvian]

The impetus of asking this question is a writeup of a certain classic character I'm working on, but it occurs to me that it could also apply to any number of types of characters with only one manipulating limb, or at any rate only one manipulating limb of a certain ST, such as elephants and industrial robots.

So, briefly, max One-Handed Lift is 2xBL (takes two seconds). Max Two-Handed Lift is 8xBL (takes four seconds). Now suppose you have a character of a certain ST (and/or Lifting ST, but I would like this to apply to throwing things as well in some cases), but who either only has one arm (or other manipulator working as an arm in GURPS terms), or has one arm substantially stronger than the other(s), such that the weaker arms are not really a factor. What should be the cost to allow lifting (and possibly throwing) with the single arm equal to what other characters can do with two, but not otherwise increasing the effective ST of the character or the arm - i.e., no greater Striking ST (which is a component of Arm ST) for purposes of hitting with that limb, no greater carrying capacity with the entire body if it's just the other arm(s) and not the whole body that's weaker, and so on? Should it be:

1) Add enough Lifting ST to double the character's total, thereby raising BL by a factor of 4, but limited to only affecting what the character can actually pick up with one hand at -80%? This could be pretty expensive in some cases, e.g. if you have a character with ST 40 in the single arm who wants to be able to lift 2,560 lbs rather than 640 lbs, that would be Lifting ST +40, -80% [60], making it far cheaper to just not limit the base ST to the one arm in the first place.

2) Should it be a simple Perk - Improved One-Handed Lift or similar, allowing 8xBL lifts in 4 seconds with the one hand?

Or is there some in between option I'm not thinking of here?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

The impetus of asking this question is a writeup of a certain classic character I'm working on, but it occurs to me that it could also apply to any number of types of characters with only one manipulating limb, or at any rate only one manipulating limb of a certain ST, such as elephants and industrial robots.

And Bucky, the Winter Soldier. :-)

I'd maybe just go with Arm ST with a 50% discount if you naturally have two arms, plus an Unusual Background to say why.

As GM, I'd tell the player I'm going to be fairy restrictive as to what it applies to.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

And Bucky, the Winter Soldier. :-)

I'd maybe just go with Arm ST with a 50% discount if you naturally have two arms, plus an Unusual Background to say why.

As GM, I'd tell the player I'm going to be fairy restrictive as to what it applies to.

Arm ST, one arm, is already cheaper at 3 points per level.

The problem is, Arm ST improves striking damage, which this should not.

The other problem is that the particular character(s) I have in mind also have comparable strength in their legs, and presumably have some kind of reinforcement going through their hips, spinal column, and shoulder attachments, allowing for full use of the stronger arm's ST or the leg ST in lifting, pushing, shoving, or striking without risk of injury, so straight Arm ST, even with a limitation for (some of it, at least) not being applicable to striking, still isn't quite right. It's just that the other, weaker human arm (and incidental stuff like headbutts, resistance to people grappling the head and neck, etc.) isn't as strong, so rather than buying Arm ST and some form of Leg ST separately, which would probably end up being as much as full External ST, I'm planning to modify External ST to include not covering the weaker arm, etc.

The problem is that I still want the one superstrong limb to have full lifting ability with the one hand, even though it doesn't hit any harder and the character can't lift or shove any better with the legs, back, etc. Since the character could just as easily be written up with two superstrong arms, i.e., simply with External ST, and is only being given the weaker arm and need to lift heavy objects with one hand in order to be true to the source material, I certainly don't want making up for that difference to cost any more than was saved by modifying the character's ST in the first place, and since it still represents a weakness (won't be able to hit or lift with the other arm the same way), probably should still be a net point benefit.

[whswhs]

Looking at the stats, Arm ST +1 is 3 points. But that adds to both Lifting ST and Striking ST, as vitruvian points out. Buying just Lifting ST +1 costs 3 points for your whole body, as opposed to buying up overall ST for 10 points or Lifting *and* Striking ST for 8 points.

On one hand, you could say that you start with Arm ST +1 for 3 points; and then 3/8 of its cost is going to lifting, and 5/8 to striking. So 3/8 x 3 = 9/8. On the other hand, you could say that you start with Lifting ST +1 for 3 points; and then boosts to one arm are 3/10 of the cost for whole body, and 3/10 x 3 = 9/10. Either way, you won't be much in error if you treat +1 to Lifting ST for one arm only as a leveled perk.

I'd also note that if you wanted to lift as much with one arm as a normal person with your ST could lift with both arms, you'd need 4x BL, or 2x Lifting ST for that one arm. That seems like it's definitely an upper limit! In fact, since a one-handed lift is faster than a two-handed lift, it could be said that it's a relative advantage. It might be reasonable to say that you can go up to a 40% increase; that would give you half as much lift as if you still had both arms, and faster.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Looking at the stats, Arm ST +1 is 3 points. But that adds to both Lifting ST and Striking ST, as vitruvian points out. Buying just Lifting ST +1 costs 3 points for your whole body, as opposed to buying up overall ST for 10 points or Lifting *and* Striking ST for 8 points.

On one hand, you could say that you start with Arm ST +1 for 3 points; and then 3/8 of its cost is going to lifting, and 5/8 to striking. So 3/8 x 3 = 9/8. On the other hand, you could say that you start with Lifting ST +1 for 3 points; and then boosts to one arm are 3/10 of the cost for whole body, and 3/10 x 3 = 9/10. Either way, you won't be much in error if you treat +1 to Lifting ST for one arm only as a leveled perk.

I'd also note that if you wanted to lift as much with one arm as a normal person with your ST could lift with both arms, you'd need 4x BL, or 2x Lifting ST for that one arm. That seems like it's definitely an upper limit! In fact, since a one-handed lift is faster than a two-handed lift, it could be said that it's a relative advantage. It might be reasonable to say that you can go up to a 40% increase; that would give you half as much lift as if you still had both arms, and faster.

1 CP per +1 is better, especially if it can then be further limited, but for the type of character I'm thinking of, it's almost more flavor text than anything else... the lifts don't actually seem to take a shorter time, so the writeup would potentially be better served leaving off the limitation on the base ST that it doesn't include one arm as anything more than a Quirk (maybe take Weak Arm -50% on an existing arm for -5 CP, 1/5th value for 'doesn't actually affect max 'Two-Handed' Lift). To be clear, that would be *instead* of placing any 'one arm' or 'partial' limitation on the base level of ST or External ST, not in addition to it.

Or since it *does* affect the striking ability of the weaker arm, maybe even give the character -3 CP (-5 CP, -35% limitation for effectively not impacting the Lifting ST component of the weaker arm's ST), and *do* limit the Striking ST. For an actual one-armed wonder like an animated crane or an industrial robot, then, that would be One Arm, -35% does not impact maximum lifting capacity for -13 CP.

Or maybe it will be simpler to just give the character the double ST, letting them lift the desired amount with the one arm in 2 seconds, letting them punch twice as hard, and dealing with the fact that they'll be able to leg press a good 5x as much weight if they're in a position to do that.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

The particular character(s) I have in mind also have comparable strength in their legs, and presumably have some kind of reinforcement going through their hips, spinal column, and shoulder attachments, allowing for full use of the stronger arm's ST or the leg ST in lifting, pushing, shoving, or striking without risk of injury

So, to me, this is starting to look like you buy the ST for the augmented person as a whole (perhaps Lifting ST only if Striking ST isn't in it), and buy DOWN what happens in the situations when the person can't use the single arm. So Legs, One-Handed Lift are calculated normally, and then for two-handed lift, calculate the effective 2H lifting ST by some gyrations of Basic Lift, and then buy down that value, applying a limitation that accounts for the fact that both the player and character will avoid the 2H limited lift whenever they can. I suggest a 25-35% limitation or thereabouts.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So, to me, this is starting to look like you buy the ST for the augmented person as a whole (perhaps Lifting ST only if Striking ST isn't in it), and buy DOWN what happens in the situations when the person can't use the single arm. So Legs, One-Handed Lift are calculated normally, and then for two-handed lift, calculate the effective 2H lifting ST by some gyrations of Basic Lift, and then buy down that value, applying a limitation that accounts for the fact that both the player and character will avoid the 2H limited lift whenever they can. I suggest a 25-35% limitation or thereabouts.

I'm starting to think that I'll take take External ST without any limitations at all (at least not ones related to it only applying to the one arm, there may be a power modifier and such), then take Weak Arm, 1/4 ST (-50%, -5 for an existing arm) for the weaker arm... but then limit that limitation by -35% to -40% because the weakness doesn't really affect Lifting ST in terms of max lift at all. The fact that he only uses one arm for his 8xBL 4 second lifts is more a visual thing than anything else...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqsdUyX-Ng0

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

I had a thread about this in February http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=148245 about trying to extrapolate Arm ST split v the Lifting ST / Striking ST / HP split of ST to get Arm HP / Arm Lifting ST / Arm Striking ST.

These should definitely all be options at reduced costs to the advantages they're based on, but it is probably not as straightforward as simply using the % of total, it would probably cost more.

I've never liked requiring unusual backgrounds for any of these. Realistic humans could easily have Arm/Lifting/Striking a bit higher than normal ST.

As a house rule I'd may it work the same as HP: you can buy up to 30% higher than your ST without a UB, and 1 point perk increases 30% higher to 100% higher.

For fairness I'd apply that to Arm DX too. It's really not that "exotic" for a person to have DX 10 and Arm DX 11. Using 30% non-exotic like HP would let you get up to DX 13 realistically and need a 1 point UB to buy up to Arm DX 20.

Generally agreed, but the realism factor is not terribly on point to my needs at the moment, if you think about the source material I'm adapting... ;-)

[Anthony]

Alternate Writeup: Extra Arm, Limited: part of another arm (so you don't actually have an additional arm, but one of your arms counts as two).

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Alternate Writeup: Extra Arm, Limited: part of another arm (so you don't actually have an additional arm, but one of your arms counts as two).

Oh, that's good...

I mean, I think my less limiting version of Weak Arm is probably still the way to go, but that was clever.