[Basic] Advantage Of the Week: Appearance Levels

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Interestingly, looking at the Basic Set it seems that p359 (which asserts that all reaction modifiers apply) is the only thing suggesting that Appearance should modify influence rolls.

Is there any reason to repeat it anywhere? 'Apply reaction modifiers to Influence Rolls' seems like a pretty unambiguous rule. It also notes that exceptions may exist. It's just that the Apperance exception is unexpected, and hides in SE.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

As for the consequences of this, Appearance still stacks usefully with Sex Appeal (obviously) and Diplomacy, because Diplomacy backs up the basic Reaction Roll rather than overriding it. Appearance doesn't help you get things done by way of Fast Talk, Intimidation, Savior-Faire, or Streetwise...but it may mean that you can avoid resorting to those relatively risky skills more often. Remember Second Reaction Rolls (BS495) means you're not necessarily stuck with the results of your first attempt. A simple (or Diplomacy-assisted) Reaction roll is fairly unlikely to poison the well for a subsequent approach with a 'hard' Influence skill.

You generally either resort to a skill or not; you can't look at your reaction result and then decide whether to use a skill. Diplomacy basically just never harms.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Is there any reason to repeat it anywhere? 'Apply reaction modifiers to Influence Rolls' seems like a pretty unambiguous rule. It also notes that exceptions may exist. It's just that the Apperance exception is unexpected, and hides in SE.

Some other examples do repeat, the point like Charisma specifically saying it benefits Influence skills.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

You generally either resort to a skill or not; you can't look at your reaction result and then decide whether to use a skill. Diplomacy basically just never harms.

Social Engineering claims that on page 29. My Basic Set reference, if you look at it, says otherwise. Granted SE generally should be taken to supersede Basic, but I don't buy the idea that you get one approach ever - that sounds like a gamist artifact at best.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Some other examples do repeat, the point like Charisma specifically saying it benefits Influence skills.

Social Engineering claims that on page 29. My Basic Set reference, if you look at it, says otherwise. Granted SE generally should be taken to supersede Basic, but I don't buy the idea that you get one approach ever - that sounds like a gamist artifact at best.

I typical interpret it as Reaction Rolls are your First Impressionist you get from NPCs then Influence skills trying to change those for specific results. Unless you engineer the first meeting to happen on in influence attempt [aka get to plan your initial approach]

[Sindri]

I have nothing in particular to add to vicky_molokh's actual question but I encourage people to check out whswhs's comments on my thread here
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=126069

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Some other examples do repeat, the point like Charisma specifically saying it benefits Influence skills.

What I mean is, repeating probably shouldn't be necessary.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Social Engineering claims that on page 29. My Basic Set reference, if you look at it, says otherwise. Granted SE generally should be taken to supersede Basic, but I don't buy the idea that you get one approach ever - that sounds like a gamist artifact at best.

To clarify: I didn't mean that if your first roll was a Reaction Roll, you're stuck with using a basic Reaction Roll for Second Reactions. I mean that except with Diplomacy, you either go for skill or for reaction at any given roll; it's just that a failed Diplomacy roll lets you get what you would get from the Reaction Roll as opposed to a sub-average automatic result.
If you get a RR first, then do a second reaction with Diplomacy, that's two rolls, not one.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

What I mean is, repeating probably shouldn't be necessary.

It shouldn't be, but we're aware that the rules don't always say what they're intended to, aren't we? I thought the comparatively thin basis for using Appearance as an influence roll modifier was interesting in context of SE's rule on it.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

To clarify: I didn't mean that if your first roll was a Reaction Roll, you're stuck with using a basic Reaction Roll for Second Reactions. I mean that except with Diplomacy, you either go for skill or for reaction at any given roll; it's just that a failed Diplomacy roll lets you get what you would get from the Reaction Roll as opposed to a sub-average automatic result.
If you get a RR first, then do a second reaction with Diplomacy, that's two rolls, not one.

I am now more confused. Of course you only get one roll on a given attempt unless using Diplomacy, but I never suggested otherwise. My point was that with Appearance you buy a useful improvement to your chance of getting what you want out of a usually low-risk reaction roll, and then if that doesn't get what you're after you can come back with the heavier methods. The fewer Influence rolls you have to attempt, the fewer chances you have to crash and burn to a Bad result.

And I have no clue what the final sentence is about.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It shouldn't be, but we're aware that the rules don't always say what they're intended to, aren't we? I thought the comparatively thin basis for using Appearance as an influence roll modifier was interesting in context of SE's rule on it.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I am now more confused. Of course you only get one roll on a given attempt unless using Diplomacy, but I never suggested otherwise. My point was that with Appearance you buy a useful improvement to your chance of getting what you want out of a usually low-risk reaction roll, and then if that doesn't get what you're after you can come back with the heavier methods. The fewer Influence rolls you have to attempt, the fewer chances you have to crash and burn to a Bad result.

And I have no clue what the final sentence is about.

My final sentence is about the fact that you don't get to make a Reaction Roll, look at the result, then roll Influence to modify this same Reaction roll* - you have to shift your approach, spend more time, whatever, and this 'increment' can and usually does have some sort of consequences (though not necessarily catastrophic ones).

* == Unlike, say, using Luck to reroll it. And you don't even know what's on the dice unless you use Empathy or Body Language, IIRC. Thankfully, the Reaction Roll comes after the Empathy/Body Language roll.