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Old 07-03-2019, 09:59 AM   #21
ericthered
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Engines can be run on high-content alcohol, and maybe some are converted that way, but human or animal power seems more likely. Burnable material is more likely to be used for heating and calorically dense items are more likely to be used as food than distilled. But if some industry has returned, it may well be running on alcohol instead of oil. Given the overgrowth of plant matter, this may be even more practical. Particularly for cooking and heating.
Wood gas vehicles are also an option, if you've got the technical know-how and materials to build one.

Its also worth remembering that while Fuels will degrade, they will still burn, just not in the finely controlled fashion that modern devices rely on.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:01 AM   #22
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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10 years is the usual rule of thumb. UV, ozone, and humidity are bad
Id guess while it is a rule of thumb but you can run significantly older tires, they will not be as good for grip, they may be less then completely round, they will likely start to develop cracks and so on but I've driven personally on tires with 20 years on them and they wheren't good but neither where they horrendously bad. They had spent most of that time stored with some on off use on them but not very many miles driven. It would surprise me if tires stored in a dark garage with decentish environment can't be driven for at least a while before they breakdown even after significantly longer then 20 years.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:01 AM   #23
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

Need more info:

-Pre-apocalypse TL
-Nature of the apocalypse
-Climate/geography of adventure region
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:29 AM   #24
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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So ammo that's been sealed away should last a good long while then?
Depends a bit on the type of propellant used(some are somewhat corrosive), but in general, many decades is not a problem. I have often shot 30-50 year old ammunition without problems.

In fact in the early 1990s I shot about 30 000 rounds of 9x19mm that was mostly dated from 1940s to 1960s without major problems, though there were more miss-fires than with newer ammo.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:31 AM   #25
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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Solar cells decay over time (the oldest ones around still function at like 60% their nominal capacity), but if they aren't cracked, they will still work for a looong time. Decades, though the inverters and storage systems they're hooked up to will fail much sooner.
I did some consulting work for a company selling solar energy solutions to small businesses and farmers a couple of years ago. The inverters were iirc planned around an expected 10-year lifespan while the panels themselves had a 20-year "project lifespan" with graphs showing a decline to 70-80% of initial output. This was afaik based on the various manufacturers' advertised lifespan for the components.

It would not be unexpected to find some solar energy solutions run 5-10 years after the last missed maintenance. Others will have failed for a variety of reasons before that maintenance was supposed to happen.

Cinematically speaking most solar (and wind) power setups would work "forever" unless some outside force disrupts them (sabotage, natural disasters, animals, looting, whatever). And if the setting has one or more Super geniuses working on renewable energy sources, I'd find it likely that the lifespan (+ durability and efficiency) of these things would be dramatically increased compared to modern technology.
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:35 AM   #26
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Wood gas vehicles are also an option, if you've got the technical know-how and materials to build one.

Its also worth remembering that while Fuels will degrade, they will still burn, just not in the finely controlled fashion that modern devices rely on.
Quite true. Also, compressed gasses are good pretty much indefinitely. So, propane, butane, and the like may well still be around in limited quantity. Many forklifts and lawn mowers currently run on propane, and pre-fab homes generate electricity from the same. Producing more requires substantial infrastructure, but if reserves are located someone could be quite comfortable.

... Now I'm picturing the king of a small town being paraded around on his throne held aloft by a forklift as the procession goes back to his magnificent double-wide which has... HEAT! and a working well. and... a washing machine!
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Old 07-03-2019, 10:50 AM   #27
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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One underrated problem is fuel. liquid fuels like gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel go bad surprisingly quickly.

Gasoline has a stable shelf life of about 3 months. Less if it's mixed with ethanol which it usually is in the US to reduce emissions. More if it's mixed with stabilizing chemicals, but 9 months is pretty much the outside.

Diesel can be stored longer, generally 6-12 months. I didn't find a ready source for jet fuel.

Engines can be run on high-content alcohol, and maybe some are converted that way, but human or animal power seems more likely. Burnable material is more likely to be used for heating and calorically dense items are more likely to be used as food than distilled. But if some industry has returned, it may well be running on alcohol instead of oil. Given the overgrowth of plant matter, this may be even more practical. Particularly for cooking and heating.
I intended for most travel to be done by foot, horse, or wagon. There are probably still vehicles around, but they require technical expertise to keep running. Most likely vehicles that require less electronics like most older models would be the go-to.

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Wood gas vehicles are also an option, if you've got the technical know-how and materials to build one.

Its also worth remembering that while Fuels will degrade, they will still burn, just not in the finely controlled fashion that modern devices rely on.
Wood gas . . . interesting.


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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Need more info:

-Pre-apocalypse TL
-Nature of the apocalypse
-Climate/geography of adventure region
I was looking for just general information, but . . .

-TL was a mature TL8 that bordered on TL9 in some areas. Medicine was fairly advanced and there was superscience in the form of various items made by gadgeteers.

-I discussed this upthread in post #14.

-General climate in the Northern Hemisphere is like Alaska/Canada (those actual areas are barely habitable due to fast-moving glaciers and supremely cold weather). New York City is where they currently are, but I'm not sure where they might end up.

Again, I was just looking for general information.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:02 AM   #28
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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Depends a bit on the type of propellant used(some are somewhat corrosive), but in general, many decades is not a problem. I have often shot 30-50 year old ammunition without problems.

In fact in the early 1990s I shot about 30 000 rounds of 9x19mm that was mostly dated from 1940s to 1960s without major problems, though there were more miss-fires than with newer ammo.
Groovy.

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Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
I did some consulting work for a company selling solar energy solutions to small businesses and farmers a couple of years ago. The inverters were iirc planned around an expected 10-year lifespan while the panels themselves had a 20-year "project lifespan" with graphs showing a decline to 70-80% of initial output. This was afaik based on the various manufacturers' advertised lifespan for the components.

It would not be unexpected to find some solar energy solutions run 5-10 years after the last missed maintenance. Others will have failed for a variety of reasons before that maintenance was supposed to happen.

Cinematically speaking most solar (and wind) power setups would work "forever" unless some outside force disrupts them (sabotage, natural disasters, animals, looting, whatever). And if the setting has one or more Super geniuses working on renewable energy sources, I'd find it likely that the lifespan (+ durability and efficiency) of these things would be dramatically increased compared to modern technology.
So in theory I could have solar panels providing electricity with minimanal issues. Cool. I'm not so sure wind power would be an option due to the really harsh climate in the winter. Winters get really bad (like negatives in double digits bad).



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Originally Posted by khorboth View Post
Quite true. Also, compressed gasses are good pretty much indefinitely. So, propane, butane, and the like may well still be around in limited quantity. Many forklifts and lawn mowers currently run on propane, and pre-fab homes generate electricity from the same. Producing more requires substantial infrastructure, but if reserves are located someone could be quite comfortable.

... Now I'm picturing the king of a small town being paraded around on his throne held aloft by a forklift as the procession goes back to his magnificent double-wide which has... HEAT! and a working well. and... a washing machine!
I sell propane and propane accessories. I hadn't even considered propane. That seems like something that might work for the Saviors of the Heartlands given their dominance of Texas and multiple southern states.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:20 AM   #29
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
10 years is the usual rule of thumb. UV, ozone, and humidity are bad (tire manufacturers recommend airtight plastic bags as covers to protect stored tires), as are extreme temperatures (below freezing, or over around 80F). If you can seal them and climate-control them, then they can last a very long time, but "apocalypse" suggests you won't have the climate control at least.
There are tires in tire yards stacked twenty tires high that were made in the 30's. Tires deform and they loose their durability but they don't disintegrate very quickly. I don't think you're going to find a lot of tires on cars that are viable after 10 years in the apocalypse. Humidity and extremes of temperature would erode them or just the pressure of the car pressing down on the tires would deform them. However, wrapped in plastic on a rack in a tire shop where they were protected from the elements? I think a modern tire would work just fine after 20 years. Even after 30 years they'd still hold pressure and roll but the rubber may be fatigued and wear down faster, the seal wouldn't be as tight, may need to be filled often. But they'd work.

I'd think of 10 years as the "best used before" date. But likely the tires on your car now were manufactured close to a decade ago if not longer for narrow tire types and they work just fine.

Ammunition packed in a factory has a long shelf life. Its finely mixed powder packed air-tight. It takes real extremes of temperature to affect it. Over time the powder will lose potency but that's TIME TIME. 20 year old ammunition would work just fine and 100 year old ammunition would still be mostly reliable.

Fuel goes so quickly. In the best circumstances gasoline goes inert enough that it won't run an engine in under a year. Diesel that isn't in a stirring tank makes it about a month before it gels. Humidity and temperature slashes those times. Crude Oil once exposed to air begins to tar and crust over so even if you have the skills to build a refinery, after a decade or so you need the skills to drill and build oil rigs too.

Wiring corrodes. Electronic devices exposed to the elements that aren't glued-shut start start to go bad inside of a Decade and wouldn't be reliable after 20 years. Even kept indoors with reasonable protection things like clocks or electric motors or ovens wouldn't work as well after 50 years and computerized devices, smart phones, televisions. They'd be failing after 20-odd years.

Canned food lasts a long time but after 10 years it gets increasingly less appealing than any other source of food. Dry foods only last as well as their packaging and how air-tight they can be made. Most aren't edible after 20-25 years. Unfoods really have crazy shelf lifes. Allegedly packages of Velveeta have remained edible over a decade and Twinkies have legendary long lives.

Last edited by Black Leviathan; 07-03-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:58 AM   #30
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Default Re: So What IS ruined after an Apocalypse?

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Yeah, I actually knew this. I figure most folks are going to grow as much as they can in the greener months since winters are basically a 7-9 month period at this point.
And I assume some areas are going to build the largest greenhouses they can with available materials. (And no glass isn't needed, but it would be preferred.)
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