GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range? - Page 2

ruskerdax · 01-02-2019, 03:40 PM

Hm. I suppose when you put it in perspective like that it's not wildly off base with reality, but I keep thinking someone is going to make the realization that if you weren't essentially forced to use the close-range rule, which is ostensibly better, you may actually be getting a more effective shot.

It makes a bit of sense now that you mention it. When your target is so close the shot hasn't spread so much that you're getting the same huge bonus to hit.

Polydamas · 01-02-2019, 04:21 PM

GURPS probably also overestimates the effect of many small wounds ... I doubt that 10 shallow stabs/deep abbrasions/pellet wounds are really 10 times as injurious as 1 of the same wound. So the problem may be overestimating the effect of the many single pellets not underestimating the effect of the extremely close range blast.

The shotgun rules have the right effect: at short range, shotloads function like single large bullets, and being hit by even one load is a very very bad thing unless you have armour. They are also simple, and when characters are firing shotguns at knife-fighting range you want to resolve things quickly and keep the action flowing.

Page B409 does not suggest that pi or pi- can become pi+ at extremely close range, but that might be a fair house rule.

Ulzgoroth · 01-02-2019, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Page B409 does not suggest that pi or pi- can become pi+ at extremely close range, but that might be a fair house rule.

Why? Shotloads get upgraded (if you're using the corrective rule from TS) because the whole shotload is not in fact one pistol-caliber projectile. Not because extremely close range makes the pellets make bigger holes.

Anthony · 01-02-2019, 05:35 PM

Realistically, increased shot spread (caused by increased range) does improve lethality, for two reasons. First, lethality is heavily dependent on shot placement, so if one pellet doesn't hit something important, a second pellet right next to it probably won't hit something important either, while a second pellet a bit away might. Second, once some flesh has been shredded, pureeing it with a second shot in the same location really doesn't do much.

Now, the actual interaction of RoF rules with shotguns are pretty unrealistic. The reason shotguns help with hitting is basically the flyswatter principle: with a single shot you miss if you don't aim within the size of the target, with a spray you can miss by up to your scatter radius and still have a chance of hitting.

Ulzgoroth · 01-02-2019, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

Now, the actual interaction of RoF rules with shotguns are pretty unrealistic. The reason shotguns help with hitting is basically the flyswatter principle: with a single shot you miss if you don't aim within the size of the target, with a spray you can miss by up to your scatter radius and still have a chance of hitting.

That's also basically the reason automatic weapons help with hitting.

CthulhuBob · 06-06-2019, 05:11 AM

A bit of a tangent, but I'll ask here, rather than starting a new post.

Why is the target's DR better at extremely close range, as per p. 409? In my experience, this is not the case.

Also, After many years, I still don't understand how to apply shotgun damage. If you fire one round with a 12 GA shotgun, the damage, on p. 279, reads as 1d+1 pi, with a RoF x9. Does this mean you roll 9 separate 1d+1s, applying DR to each, 9 separate 1d+1s and add them together, or roll 1d+1 and multiply the result times 9?

The first result is entirely unrealistic, though the other two make about equal sense. I've always ruled 9d+9, but that doesn't seem, to me, to be what the table on p. 279 reads.

What is the proper method?

Thanks, and I hope this is an acceptable place to pose this question.

Þorkell · 06-06-2019, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CthulhuBob

Also, After many years, I still don't understand how to apply shotgun damage. If you fire one round with a 12 GA shotgun, the damage, on p. 279, reads as 1d+1 pi, with a RoF x9. Does this mean you roll 9 separate 1d+1s, applying DR to each, 9 separate 1d+1s and add them together, or roll 1d+1 and multiply the result times 9?

The first one. You roll 1d+1 and compare each roll vs. DR. Of course, you have to make your skill roll by 8 for there to be 9 rolls of 1d+1.

Mr_Sandman · 06-06-2019, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CthulhuBob

A bit of a tangent, but I'll ask here, rather than starting a new post.

Why is the target's DR better at extremely close range, as per p. 409? In my experience, this is not the case.

Also, After many years, I still don't understand how to apply shotgun damage. If you fire one round with a 12 GA shotgun, the damage, on p. 279, reads as 1d+1 pi, with a RoF x9. Does this mean you roll 9 separate 1d+1s, applying DR to each, 9 separate 1d+1s and add them together, or roll 1d+1 and multiply the result times 9?

The first result is entirely unrealistic, though the other two make about equal sense. I've always ruled 9d+9, but that doesn't seem, to me, to be what the table on p. 279 reads.

What is the proper method?

Thanks, and I hope this is an acceptable place to pose this question.

It's not that the target's DR is actually better, it's that the armor still is protecting against each pellet in the shotload individually, even though at close range the damage roll has combined them into one number, so you multiply the DR to have it protect appropriately.

Why do you think it's unrealistic to roll damage for each pellet separately and apply DR individually to the damage of each pellet that hits? They are separate projectiles that interact with the armor individually. Shotguns can mess up unarmored targets pretty bad because a well placed shot puts a several pellets into the target, but the pellets are light and lose velocity quickly, so they do not penetrate armor well.

Tomsdad · 06-06-2019, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CthulhuBob

A bit of a tangent, but I'll ask here, rather than starting a new post.

Why is the target's DR better at extremely close range, as per p. 409? In my experience, this is not the case.

Also, After many years, I still don't understand how to apply shotgun damage. If you fire one round with a 12 GA shotgun, the damage, on p. 279, reads as 1d+1 pi, with a RoF x9. Does this mean you roll 9 separate 1d+1s, applying DR to each, 9 separate 1d+1s and add them together, or roll 1d+1 and multiply the result times 9?

The first result is entirely unrealistic, though the other two make about equal sense. I've always ruled 9d+9, but that doesn't seem, to me, to be what the table on p. 279 reads.

What is the proper method?

Thanks, and I hope this is an acceptable place to pose this question.

Þorkell and Mr_sandman have outlined the RAW here, but how do you do non shotgun Rof?

If say you shooting a 9mm SMG 3d at some one with a 8 DR vest and say you hit with 9 rounds (an exceptionally high skill roll).

How would you roll the results?

AlexanderHowl · 06-06-2019, 08:25 AM

At close range (10% 1/2D), you multiply the damage of shot by half the multiplier, rounded down, and multiply any target DR by half the multiplier, rounded down (Basic, p. 409). The RoF goes from 3×9 to 3. So, you are likely to hit with all three at 2 yards, but you will only do an average of 18 HP per shot, for an average of 54 HP. If your target has a heavy leather coat on (DR 2), it increases to DR 8, meaning that the damage drops to 10 HP per shot, 30 HP total. If your target has a ballistic vest on (DR 8), it increases to DR 32, meaning that they only take blunt trauma damage (an average of 3 HP per shot, or 9 HP total).

01-02-2019, 03:40 PM	#11
ruskerdax Join Date: Jan 2019	Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range? Hm. I suppose when you put it in perspective like that it's not wildly off base with reality, but I keep thinking someone is going to make the realization that if you weren't essentially forced to use the close-range rule, which is ostensibly better, you may actually be getting a more effective shot. It makes a bit of sense now that you mention it. When your target is so close the shot hasn't spread so much that you're getting the same huge bonus to hit.

01-02-2019, 04:21 PM	#12
Polydamas Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central Europe	Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range? GURPS probably also overestimates the effect of many small wounds ... I doubt that 10 shallow stabs/deep abbrasions/pellet wounds are really 10 times as injurious as 1 of the same wound. So the problem may be overestimating the effect of the many single pellets not underestimating the effect of the extremely close range blast. The shotgun rules have the right effect: at short range, shotloads function like single large bullets, and being hit by even one load is a very very bad thing unless you have armour. They are also simple, and when characters are firing shotguns at knife-fighting range you want to resolve things quickly and keep the action flowing. Page B409 does not suggest that pi or pi- can become pi+ at extremely close range, but that might be a fair house rule. __________________ "It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 01-02-2019 at 04:24 PM.

01-02-2019, 05:35 PM	#14
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range? Realistically, increased shot spread (caused by increased range) does improve lethality, for two reasons. First, lethality is heavily dependent on shot placement, so if one pellet doesn't hit something important, a second pellet right next to it probably won't hit something important either, while a second pellet a bit away might. Second, once some flesh has been shredded, pureeing it with a second shot in the same location really doesn't do much. Now, the actual interaction of RoF rules with shotguns are pretty unrealistic. The reason shotguns help with hitting is basically the flyswatter principle: with a single shot you miss if you don't aim within the size of the target, with a spray you can miss by up to your scatter radius and still have a chance of hitting. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.

06-06-2019, 05:11 AM	#16
CthulhuBob Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Missoula	Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range? A bit of a tangent, but I'll ask here, rather than starting a new post. Why is the target's DR better at extremely close range, as per p. 409? In my experience, this is not the case. Also, After many years, I still don't understand how to apply shotgun damage. If you fire one round with a 12 GA shotgun, the damage, on p. 279, reads as 1d+1 pi, with a RoF x9. Does this mean you roll 9 separate 1d+1s, applying DR to each, 9 separate 1d+1s and add them together, or roll 1d+1 and multiply the result times 9? The first result is entirely unrealistic, though the other two make about equal sense. I've always ruled 9d+9, but that doesn't seem, to me, to be what the table on p. 279 reads. What is the proper method? Thanks, and I hope this is an acceptable place to pose this question. __________________ CthulhuBob MisCon 34, 22nd-25th of May, 2020 www.miscon.org Talk MisCon! https://www.facebook.com/groups/225948954099351/ __________________ "Get her, that was your whole plan, get her?"

06-06-2019, 08:25 AM	#20
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: GURPS Shotguns Weaker at Close Range? At close range (10% 1/2D), you multiply the damage of shot by half the multiplier, rounded down, and multiply any target DR by half the multiplier, rounded down (Basic, p. 409). The RoF goes from 3×9 to 3. So, you are likely to hit with all three at 2 yards, but you will only do an average of 18 HP per shot, for an average of 54 HP. If your target has a heavy leather coat on (DR 2), it increases to DR 8, meaning that the damage drops to 10 HP per shot, 30 HP total. If your target has a ballistic vest on (DR 8), it increases to DR 32, meaning that they only take blunt trauma damage (an average of 3 HP per shot, or 9 HP total).