New Advantage: Master of Targeted Attacks [30]

[Tallor]

Tired of missing your Targeted Attacks? Wish you could hit vitals, extremities, or other high-value targets? Then spend your character points today on the brand new Master of Targeted Attacks! For only thirty points, MTA effectively halves your targeted attack penalties! Buy one today!

Location - Standard Penalty - New Penalty - Cost
Skull ------------ -7 --------------- -3 ---------- 5
Face ------------- -5 -------------- -2 ---------- 4
Neck ------------- -5 -------------- -2 ---------- 4
Vitals ------------ -3 -------------- -1 ---------- 3
Arms ------------- -2 -------------- -1 ---------- 2
Legs -------------- -2 -------------- -1 ---------- 2
Extremities ------ -4 -------------- -2 ---------- 3
Weapon Adaptation ---------------------------- 7

Total Cost ---------------------------------------30

[cdru]

Essentially, it's something like fully training all TA techniques?

[Tallor]

Originally Posted by cdru

Essentially, it's something like fully training all TA techniques?

Almost all! Not chinks in armor, which is confusing for me...

[Tomsdad]

I'd chuck the chinks in for free because it's not a very point efficient advantage.

For 30 points I can add at least 7* points to my combat skill and that is better all round and also at those specific TA's.

I think there's a rule of thumb about a maximum number of techniques it's worth improving directly, before it just becomes more efficient to improve the underlying skill.


*or I could spent 28 points doing so and have 2 points left over for perks like weapon adaption which it's unlikely I'll need lots of.

[Johan Larson]

The problem I have with this advantage is it doesn't really correspond to anything in the real world. It makes you better at hitting specific parts of the body, but not vehicles or static targets, and with anything from a fist to a sword to an arquebus. It's hard to imagine what sort of training regimen would produce such an effect. If you're better at hitting with a specific weapon, that's skill in that weapon or weapon class. If you're more precise in general, that's a boost to your DEX.

If a player were really keen on targeted attacks, I would allow taking targeted attacks as maneuvers, but each maneuver would be with a specific weapon against a specific target.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

For 30 points I can add at least 7* points to my combat skill

True. But the proposed Advantage affects _all_ of your combat skills. And serious warriors generally have more than one -- a main armed and main unarmed skill, at least; probably both melee and ranged. And then the secondary weapons. So the comparison would be more with adding 2 points to your combat skills.

Still unconvinced it's worth the cost. In the games I play, targeted attacks are done occasionally, when there's a particular need, but not as a routine measure every round. (Deceptive Attack is usually a more effective place to bleed off excess attack skill, unless the opponents are just incompetent mooks.)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

True. But the proposed Advantage affects _all_ of your combat skills. And serious warriors generally have more than one -- a main armed and main unarmed skill, at least; probably both melee and ranged. And then the secondary weapons. So the comparison would be more with adding 2 points to your combat skills.

Only I'm not sure the proposed advantage does that*, TA are skill specific. I'm guessing the inclusion of 7x weapon adaptation (one for each TA) is there to allow you get the bonus with every skill you have. But that not how the perk Weapon adaption works:


"You’ve adapted the moves used with one group of melee
weapons to another class of weapons. This lets you wield the
weapons covered by one weapon skill using a different skill
and its techniques, with all of the benefits and drawbacks of
that skill, provided the replacement skill defaults to the
usual one at no worse than -4 and uses the same number of
hands. Each adaptation is a separate perk; e.g., Weapon
Adaptation (Shortsword to Smallsword) lets you use the
Smallsword skill to fight when equipped with a Shortsword
weapon – complete with fencing parries, superior retreats,
and encumbrance penalties. The GM may permit silly adaptations,
such as Knife to Halberd, as cinematic perks.." MA pg.52

the crossing between melee skills is quite limited unless you go cinematic, and even then you won't be able to link melee and unarmed or missile weapon skills. I'm not sure there is a group of seven melee skills that qualify

On top of that the best bonus you see is +4 vs. skulls, the majority of bonuses are +1 to +2, So even spreading that 30 point around several combat skills is likely a better way to go.

Weapon adaption is odd perk because of the term "benefits and drawbacks of
that skill", as most skills don't have any!
So in reality it's good for avoiding default pens, and getting fencing retreat bonuses on a wider array of one hand handed blades. (I always think Form mastery is the better deal)

Even then I think it would be better to have +7 in a skill default to another and you'd see a similar bonus to most of the TA techniques at default levels (and you could still keep those 2 point to buy weapon adaptation for your most likely crossovers).

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Still unconvinced it's worth the cost. In the games I play, targeted attacks are done occasionally, when there's a particular need, but not as a routine measure every round. (Deceptive Attack is usually a more effective place to bleed off excess attack skill, unless the opponents are just incompetent mooks.)

Yep, with a +7 to skill I'd trade the flexibility to do a +6 deceptive attack with a blanket +1 to hit on top, or a flat +7 to hit (or +3 to parry, +7 to feints etc, etc), for most of this.



*however I could be reading it wrong, I think these various perks get a bit nebulous

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Only I'm not sure the proposed advantage does that, TA are skill specific. I'm guessing the inclusion of 7x weapon adaptation (one for each TA) is there to allow you get the bonus with every skill you have. But that not how the perk Weapon adaption works:

Custom made Advantages don't need to fit the exact pieces they're made with, using all the Targeted Attack and Weapon Adaption Techniques and perks as price gauges to come to an estimated fair value.

As it is though, I agree pure skill is better.
The problem I can see though is if the cost becomes to low, then it will become to good, and I quite like most attacks being aimed at the torso or random hit location, with only occasional attacks being targeted elsewhere for a specific purpose and this will change it to most attacks being aimed somewhere crippling, because the penalties are much lower (which is why I never allow Targeted Attack to be bought up as a technique anymore, except for limbs or extremities), or the price will be to expensive for most people to want to take, and then there isn't much point of it existing.

(Sorry if anything stopped making sense, I just realised it's really late, and I'm not sure if I ended typing on the same train of thought as I started with)

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Leynok

Custom made Advantages don't need to fit the exact pieces they're made with, using all the Targeted Attack and Weapon Adaption Techniques and perks as price gauges to come to an estimated fair value.

Oh that's absolutely fair enough, and if someone wanted to pay 30 points for this I likely just let them have those TA's for all melee skills and not worry about the specifics of weapon adaptation (although not sure I'd let it apply to all combat skills*)!

*edit: actually I might as you'd still need to buy all the different skills to make this that broadly worthwhile.

Originally Posted by Leynok

As it is though, I agree pure skill is better.
The problem I can see though is if the cost becomes to low, then it will become to good, and I quite like most attacks being aimed at the torso or random hit location, with only occasional attacks being targeted elsewhere for a specific purpose and this will change it to most attacks being aimed somewhere crippling, because the penalties are much lower (which is why I never allow Targeted Attack to be bought up as a technique anymore, except for limbs or extremities), or the price will be to expensive for most people to want to take, and then there isn't much point of it existing.

IME a lot of point on TA's leads to one trick ponies. Sometimes that trick works for them, and other times they find themselves in situation where they can't leverage it. So it's a gamble, but then fast specialism over slower general improvement always is.

Originally Posted by Leynok

(Sorry if anything stopped making sense, I just realised it's really late, and I'm not sure if I ended typing on the same train of thought as I started with)

You're all good mate!

cheers

TD

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I think there's a rule of thumb about a maximum number of techniques it's worth improving directly, before it just becomes more efficient to improve the underlying skill.

It's rarely worthwhile to have more than 2 Techniques. 3 Techniques is going to have a price comparable to getting a +1 to skill (many Techniques are Hard; +3 to three such would thus cost [12], the same as +3 to skill), and 4 Techniques always costs at least as much as a +1 to skill. It's even worse for combat skills, where almost all Techniques are Hard, and where actually buying up skill also improves your Parry. Heck, when you factor in Parry, even 2 Average Techniques aren't worth it - +2 to each and +1 to Parry costs a total of [9] ([4] for Techniques, [5] for Enhanced Parry), while just grabbing +2 to skill and getting the +1 to Parry for free costs only [8].

This assumes you have high enough skill for further boosts to cost [4] per +1; if you aren't there yet, you're pretty much always better off improving skill over picking up even a single Technique. The only exception to the above is when you have Techniques that can actually be applied together - Dual Weapon Attack can be worth it even if you already have 2 other Techniques, as can Counterattack, as those can be combined with things like Targeted Attack (although note you still need to be in the [4]/+1 range before even these become economical).

For characters who should have a wide variety of Techniques, I feel my Tech! option is fairly well balanced.