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Old 12-09-2012, 09:51 AM   #1
Anders
 
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Default TL3 hangglider

So, I just watched Ator the Invincible 2. For those of you who don't know, Ator is sort of a cross between Conan and MacGyver. And he builds a glorious hangglider in about 5 minutes from pelts he apparently tanned and stretched himself.

But is it possible? How early can you build hanggliders?
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:21 AM   #2
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

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Originally Posted by Asta Kask View Post
So, I just watched Ator the Invincible 2. For those of you who don't know, Ator is sort of a cross between Conan and MacGyver. And he builds a glorious hangglider in about 5 minutes from pelts he apparently tanned and stretched himself.

But is it possible? How early can you build hanggliders?
TL2. Mad Arab Aviator did it. Stats are in GURPS Fantasy, p.142.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:39 AM   #3
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
TL2. Mad Arab Aviator did it. Stats are in GURPS Fantasy, p.142.
That really should be TL3, not TL2 (9th century Cordoba; no idea how it was assigned the TL it has in Fantasy), and possibly not even that; see GURPS Fantasy-Tech 1 p. 17 for more detail. It's not clear from the surviving description if the inventor actually glided (turning some downward motion into forward motion) or just got a little distance based on his own initial momentum and/or cooperative winds.

I'd regard gliders as, at best, TL5. That is, it's not possible to build a glider for which the maker is working from a sufficient theoretical basis to be reasonably sure the thing won't plummet to the ground until then. An earlier prospective inventor might get lucky and, more by chance than by design, build something that slowed descent enough to create the illusion of flight, but historical inventors had a very poor track record.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

A little digging on the Web might turn up clips of the attempt, a few years back, to build Leonardo d Vinci's idea of a hang glider, using essentially TL4 materials and skills. With a fair bit of fudging and modern knowledge, the result was a vehicle that could be flown for short distances by a skilled modern hang glider pilot. The reason it didn't kill or injure her was that she didn't fly very high and she had a ground crew stabilising it with ropes.

Okay, with a bit more work, it might be possible to get a really viable TL3/4 design. But early aviation experiments killed an appalling number of experimenters even at TL5. How many pilots are you prepared to lose to get this thing to fly?
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
I'd regard gliders as, at best, TL5. That is, it's not possible to build a glider for which the maker is working from a sufficient theoretical basis to be reasonably sure the thing won't plummet to the ground until then. An earlier prospective inventor might get lucky and, more by chance than by design, build something that slowed descent enough to create the illusion of flight, but historical inventors had a very poor track record.
By that logic, you can't build manned space flight until TL9. Because the people responsible for inventing them now say that it was crazy, and reckless, and a total coincidence that we didn't have a 95% death rate of pilots. And the stuff isn't generally available even in 2012.
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:51 PM   #6
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

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By that logic, you can't build manned space flight until TL9. Because the people responsible for inventing them now say that it was crazy, and reckless, and a total coincidence that we didn't have a 95% death rate of pilots.
If what you say is actually the opinion of modern engineers and not rhetorical exaggeration (which I doubt), manned space programs in the 1960s might, first of all, be regarded as early prototypes of what was really a TL8 or even TL9 technology, just as waterwheels appeared in TL 2 but are really TL3 technology. More importantly, though, such characterizations are clearly wrong. There have been multiple manned space flight programs which successfully put a great many people in orbit and on to the moon over the course of decades, and astronauts and cosmonauts got back to Earth safely far more often than they died. That's not coincidence; that's successful design. Early experiments with gliders and parachutes, on the other hand, routinely injured or killed the pilots.

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And the stuff isn't generally available even in 2012.
By that argument, large aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines aren't TL8.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #7
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
If what you say is actually the opinion of modern engineers and not rhetorical exaggeration (which I doubt), manned space programs in the 1960s might, first of all, be regarded as early prototypes of what was really a TL8 or even TL9 technology, just as waterwheels appeared in TL 2 but are really TL3 technology. More importantly, though, such characterizations are clearly wrong. There have been multiple manned space flight programs which successfully put a great many people in orbit and on to the moon over the course of decades, and astronauts and cosmonauts got back to Earth safely far more often than they died. That's not coincidence; that's successful design. Early experiments with gliders and parachutes, on the other hand, routinely injured or killed the pilots.
It was from an interview with one of the engineers involved in Gagarin's flight. Perhaps recorded in the 80s - don't remember the precise date.


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By that argument, large aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines aren't TL8.
Okay, maybe I should've said manned to-the-moon flight. But even generic manned spaceflight seems less accessible than nuke-subs.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

A strong kite flying tradition, a silk weaving industry, and supply of bamboo should be enough. Besides, the failures will only splatter player characters.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: TL3 hangglider

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A strong kite flying tradition, a silk weaving industry, and supply of bamboo should be enough.
There have been many modern attempts that have tried to do exactly this. Find one that succeeded.
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:00 PM   #10
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There have been many modern attempts that have tried to do exactly this. Find one that succeeded.
Richard Miller, Vista Del Mar California, 1966.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rd_Miller.jpeg

So very difficult, it's Google's second link for hang glider.
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