[Supers] What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

And this may be cheaper using Imbuements and homing or guided attacks, though the FP cost may be a factor.

While no expert on the rules of imbuements, but I understood they were for use on Gear, And would look at any player funny if they tried to apply them to an IA.

[Kalzazz]

Heh, Steel Angel Chaly Alpha the Danmaku Shooter Girl tends to get crushed a lot . . . . even if you have very high dodge their is just something about sending a deluge of firepower downrange every round that just attracts the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune

So, rakes up kills, but also spends a lot of the time being so much divine scrap metal awaiting repairs

[vicky_molokh]

I think the comparison is getting a bit off-course due to assumptions about the ST and the amount of DR and the like. I'll try to give an example of two characters that would fit into 'fantasy supers', where it is easier to come up with a similar pair.

We have two spirit-powered guys. Call them Lem and Hans.
Common traits:

• They both wear magical mail (either Gadget or mundane-enchanted), for the same DR.
• They are equally dexterous, have the same Dodge, same HT/HP.
• They have the same mobility, which is unremarkable aside from Walk on Water and an Alternate Form with Enhanced Move 1 and not much else.
• They share the same set of other utility abilities, such as Spirit Empathy, low-key Healing, and some short-ranged Knockback IA.
• They can summon stationary Allies that provide some more utility, at least some of which is defensive in nature, and at least some of which provide Area-Effect Beneficial Afflictions.

Where they differ:

• Lem shoots lightning bolts, while Hans has lightning as touch-range spell (or maybe a follow-up on his weapon).
• Lem also has a Rapid Fire attack to represent a chain lightning or something. Hans, of course, can't have that, but he has a ST-based variant of some attack instead, and maybe a Destructive Parry.
• Lem can freeze people in their tracks, slowing their movement; Hans can do that with
  a weapon strike.

There's little reason to pick Hans over Lem just for a 30% limitation unless a fight is a straight contest of damage per unit of time; even then, RoF means more net damage against low-DR targets. The only advantage Hans has is in the maximum damage per hit, which isn't even relevant if their attacks are Maledictions.

In fact, I wonder how many people would trade the range of rifles roughly for a 30% damage increase.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In fact, I wonder how many people would trade the range of rifles roughly for a 30% damage increase.

I think the question is what Hans is spending his other 30% on. That seems to be neglected in that analysis.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I think the question is what Hans is spending his other 30% on. That seems to be neglected in that analysis.

I was assuming those 30% are spent on improving his offensive ability, such as giving ST-based to some mêlée attacks. Otherwise they are no longer 'equal, except for range of attacks'.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

In fact, I wonder how many people would trade the range of rifles roughly for a 30% damage increase.

In a tactical simulation where Lem and Hans are faceless unit token, ***everything else being equal***, range is better than higher damage in most case, .
The most obvious exception being when the ranged attack damage is insufficient or inefficient to harm or neutralize a target, and you need the higher damage.

But a rpg game is usually not (only) a tactical wargame, so all kinds of non combat criteria get involved, some of them individual bias.

So, the answer to
"What's the point of making Mêlée-oriented characters?"
is mostly 'because you want to'.

In my opinion

Celjabba

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

Heh, Steel Angel Chaly Alpha the Danmaku Shooter Girl tends to get crushed a lot . . . . even if you have very high dodge their is just something about sending a deluge of firepower downrange every round that just attracts the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune

So, rakes up kills, but also spends a lot of the time being so much divine scrap metal awaiting repairs

Also having an attack that can't be dodged would seem to be useful for a teams bag of tricks. Hmm, an undodgeable binding of decent level would seem to make a blasters day suck.

The thing about blasters is that you probably shouldn't compare a one trick pony blaster to a brick. But a well rounded blaster with several AA's to deal with alternate problems.

[lexington]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I was assuming those 30% are spent on improving his offensive ability, such as giving ST-based to some mêlée attacks. Otherwise they are no longer 'equal, except for range of attacks'.

Then you're making an unrealistic assumption in order to get the results you want. That 30% isn't going to be spent on more damage, people that want to play a role will use them to flesh out that role and munchkin will use them to get the best powers she can.

[Michael Thayne]

The blaster archetype bugs me, because without genre-convention induced stupidity, there are very few situations where they're useful. In a straight-up fight, a bazooka is just as useful. Maybe if you have a situation that calls for a concealable bazooka, but that's about it.

Assuming a Cyclops-clone, the power isn't even very useful to a hero Batman-style no-kill code, since in the standard version Cyclops' powers are pretty lethal.

If I wanted to munchkin-out in a 500-point game, my first instinct would be to start with the Man Plus template and move some points around to let the guy have the Guns skill.

And for someone who can use powers at a range, the ability you want is definitely not Innate Attack, but Telekinesis.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by lexington

Then you're making an unrealistic assumption in order to get the results you want. That 30% isn't going to be spent on more damage, people that want to play a role will use them to flesh out that role and munchkin will use them to get the best powers she can.

But by the blaster can reduce the power of their innate attack slightly to get the same powers. The result is still that one guy does more damage, but one guy can attack at a range, and the characters are otherwise identical.

Perhaps the best way to put it is this: build me a melee fighter, and I'll build you a ranged fighter who does less damage, can attack at a distance, and is otherwise equivalent.