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Old 11-22-2010, 03:51 PM   #1
Kisaoda
 
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Default NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

So I'm wrapping up the final stages of planning for my first adventure as GM. I've read certain articles here on the board and came to understand that I shouldn't spend much time with CPs for NPCs, espectially cannon fodder enemies. I have a general knowledge of what NPCs I want involved, but I'm unsure, however, as how to balance them with my PCs.

Just for example's sake, say I have a starting PC with straight 10s for stats. What would be considered fodder? What's moderate? How about a pretty darn tough boss. Are there certain rule of thumbs to go by? Of course, I know that each situation can differ and is up to the individual GM, but I don't want something ridiculously easy or impossibly hard for the players, taking the fun away.

Some factors, if it helps:
  • Three PCs in the group. There will be times where the characters are separated, but mostly they will stay together (if they're smart).
  • Two have decided they're going to be animal pals and haven't invested a whole lot into direct, physical strength, instead relying on cunning, knives, and ranged weaponry. The other is essentially a tank. He likes swords.
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

There are many threads on this forums dealing with "formulas" for opponents in GURPS.In my opinion single most important factor is tactical savy of your PCs.

Than skills,than equipment...etc

It is easy to misjudge comparative strengths in GURPS,or single critical success or failure can mean wipe of whole party.

So my suggestion for beginning is to go with waves of attacks.Its easiest to pull off in Forest,City or dungeon where you can say"there is a lot of noise around" and use that as pretex for introducing new opponents into a fight.

So for beggining start with opponents who have same weapon skill and armour as worst fighter among PCs...and send 1,5*number of PCs.That should be fairly easy to defeat for them.
Than send double number of PCs,or same number as PCs+one with same skill level as best fighter(though here is danger of crits pretty exagerated,since in such encounter youre counting on weaker PCs to kill fodder and come to help their best fighter.,.and if best fighter dies due critical..rest are dead also).

And so from session to session slowly increase toughness of opponents(after you see how PCs dealt with previous batch) and throw in occasional walkover(that always makes PCs smile).

Soon youll develop a feeling for what to send.

Also dont forget that if fight is going the wrong way(against PCs),you can always make NPCs do something dumb to help buy some time for PCs to get 2their game going".
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

I kinda figured as much. Practice makes perfect after all. I just wasn't sure if there was a pre-established formula that seems to make most sense when facing certain levels of NPCs.

But you've more or less covered what I asked for, so thanks!
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisaoda View Post
I kinda figured as much. Practice makes perfect after all. I just wasn't sure if there was a pre-established formula that seems to make most sense when facing certain levels of NPCs.

But you've more or less covered what I asked for, so thanks!
Or for starting fight,to be on safe side,send NPCs with skill-2 of worst fighter in PC group and with crappy/no armour.

If PCs act as a team,thats great power multiplier(specially if you play on hexes),healing is another great force multiplier...
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

What genre are we talking about here? Fantasy? Sci-fi? Kung-Fu action? Post-apocalypse?

Cinematic or not?

When it comes to asking questions about GURPS, it's almost always of prime importance to say what genre you're playing.

"He likes swords" is a good hint that you're talking about fantasy. I'm going to make that assumption below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisaoda View Post
I've read certain articles here on the board and came to understand that I shouldn't spend much time with CPs for NPCs, espectially cannon fodder enemies.
That's debatable, and constantly is debated on this forum. Some like to stat everything. Others like to stat next to nothing other than PC's. It's up to you as the GM.

Quote:
I have a general knowledge of what NPCs I want involved, but I'm unsure, however, as how to balance them with my PCs.
And, that's never easy in GURPS. I once had a scenario with just shy of 30 monster spiders. One archer PC with Curious and Overconfidence does some wildly lethal risks and ends up dead at the mandibles of one spider.
The warrior in plate comes after him. Kills all the spiders with only minimal help from the divine healer. So, one 150/-75-point PC could kill dozens of spiders and the other PC couldn't even kill one!

Balance is hard in GURPS. Experience is about the only good guide. The only way to get it as close as possible without experience is to play test it but even then, far-out dice rolls or unimaginable PC action or non-action can wreck even the most carefully laid plans.

Remember, in GURPS, 2-on-1 odds, or worse, can be highly lethal. Multiple enemies are going to be trouble even if they are "cannon fodder." This is mainly because you have a limited number of times you can defend before relying on Dodge, which often is lower than parry or block scores. There are other reasons, but that's normally bad enough.


Quote:
Just for example's sake, say I have a starting PC with straight 10s for stats. What would be considered fodder? What's moderate? How about a pretty darn tough boss.
I'd say no more than three or four ST/DX/HT10/Skill-12 NPC enemy combatants at a time in an open area if two of the PC's are unarmored animals relying on bite damage. Things get deadly quick in GURPS.

If the fighter has heavy armor, he's going to be able to chop through unarmored mooks pretty easily. Up that to ST/DX/HT12/Skill-14 with good armor and weapons if the fighter has heavy plate armor.

Can't really say much else about the bosses. Your 150-point game might be way different than mine if you allow cinematic and supernatural traits and skills.
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

Cannon fodder should rarely make contact with the PC's. When they do make contact, they should do minimal damage. They should also rarely dodge the PC's attacks. Also, don't play them as "stupid" (unless they are supposed to be). Cannon fodder tens to run away at the earliest signs of the battle going bad, unless there's a very compelling reason to stay in the fight. Cannon fodder are there to provide a speed bump, not a wall (well, enough cannon fodder can be a wall, but it's a messy wall after the PC's get through it).
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Old 11-22-2010, 06:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

In my [fairly limited] experience, one of the biggest factors in how hard someone is to kill is their armour.

In my game, the PCs who hadn't specialised in combat generally did from 1d-1 to 1d+2 basic damage, while the combat monster did about 2d+1.

Against a bad guy in no or cloth armour (DR 0 or 1), everyone would deal lots of damage and quickly kill them.
Stick someone in Scale armour or similar (DR 4), and suddenly only the combat monster has a good chance of hurting them without targeting the face or something.

This applies in reverse also, of course. One of the PCs is wearing scale armour (DR 4), and a bad guy archer hit him about 5 times without actually doing any damage. As a consequence, the archer was ignored for a long time while the PCs did more important tasks.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

I constantly have the same problem since it seems we never really stick to a group of PCs long enough for me to get a feel (as GM) for appropriate NPC level of "Challenge".
It seems impossible for me to prepare ahead of time just the right stats levels to my NPCs which will present the correct difficulty for that particular situation. ATLEAST until I get a really good feel for the PCs strengths/weaknesses/styles.
I have found that just "winging it" works the best. By this I mean: i don't even really write down stats for any NPC adversary (not even bosses usually). I simply decide on a general description or "Shtick" for that NPC. Then I make some of the combat/contest rolls behind the screen during play and sort of fudge the results/outcome as appropriate. This way I can start zeroing in on what stat levels are going to be effective against the PCs without over powering them during play, on the fly.
An example:
While trying to cross the rope bridge spanning Doom Canyon a band of goblins charge up from behind and out on to the bridge and engage in melee. I know I don't want this to be a fatal clash for the PCs but I want it to be a challenge (or at least create the illusion of challange). So I just give each Goblin a hand weapon of some sort and make them attack, maybe trying to push the PCs off the bridge to their deaths below where goblin clansmen can scavange the bodies. So I all out attack/charge with the first goblin and roll behind the screen. At this point I really have no idea what I want his stats to be so unless I roll something extreme I'll just say he connects. PC can try to defend. If he does not I then I will often toss a 1d (for starters) across the table for damage. Then modify that roll as necessary (just rolled a 6 to dmg the PC wizard? Hmmm it "seems" this goblin has a -3 to dmg roll so wizard only takes 3 due to a weak goblin, cheap rusty blade and not to mention that terrible roll he just made behind the screen to charge). Just fudge things as you need always making sure that at least some of your roll outcomes are hidden or can be explained.
Maybe the Fighter PC sudden beheads that goblin with an average roll. Hmm maybe it's time to step things up: the next goblin leaps over his bloody comrade and thrusts at the fighter with a spear. This time maybe I'll try to scare the fighter a bit so he doesn't think the goblins will be push overs. So I roll the attack in front of them this time "trying" to make it a hit (if I roll say, something reasonably good then I'll say it's a hit explaining off any descrepency with a made-up-on-the-spot attack skill/modifiers. If the Fighter manages to defend then I'll up the anti a bit with the next goblin somehow (maybe attack with multiples with some fudging).
Just continue doing this until you have a feel for the PCs power levels.... or do it forever. Fact is, as long as you are consistent in the rolls they see (Hey wasn't that goblin -3 dmg last turn? Why is he +3 dmg now?) the players will never know.... Well mine don't anyways.
This way you can dive right into running your cool plot line and not have to worry about the PCs ruining your plot line because they walk all over the big-bossman right away.... Or are sluaghtered by the lone wandering goblin.
Just my $.02.


Happy gaming!
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Old 11-23-2010, 06:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

If really want to differentiate between glass mooks and worthy foes, you might consider using the Cannon Fodder rule (or a variant, DF2 IIRC has one, and I've posted a different on these forums). What I do now is just have mooks automatically fail all HT rolls in combat; which means they usually go down on one hit (major wound) but it does make damage still relevant.
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Old 11-24-2010, 10:25 AM   #10
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Default Re: NPCs: Cannon Fodder vs Hardcore Boss

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kisaoda View Post



Are there certain rule of thumbs to go by?
The most important rule of thumb is to pay attention to enemy DR versus the maximum damage the characters can deal out. Actual cannon fodder should have minimal armour. They wear no armor, or their limbs are bare. Don't roll for them to get up again after the PCs knock them down. Don't bother to make defense rolls for them. Give them really bad skills and have them all-out attack. Tough bosses should have nigh-impenetrable DR, and a good defense roll plus luck, high pain theshold, combat reflexes...

Oh, and bear in mind that being outnumbered is a big deal in GURPS unless the characters have enough DR to shed attacks. (Which is why big bosses need nigh-impenetrable DR)
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