[Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

[Otaku]

Hellboy, have you ever heard someone compare the creator (or creative team) behind a work of fiction to God? It is a terrible comparison because authors, artists, etc. all make mistakes pretty frequently. When it is a long running work with daily and/or monthly releases (Spider-Man had a newspaper strip in addition to the comic books) will find it so improbable as to be impossible to for the creative teams (plural!) not only to stay consistent with what they have written in the past, but to fully realize the implications of even real world capabilities, let alone the fantastic ones.

A single instance of [insert anything] is not justification for including it for a character build unless the rest of the narrative and/or reasonable inferences back it up. Likewise, an absence of something in the comics is not justification for eliminating it from a character build unless the rest of the narrative and/or reasonable inferences back it up. This is why adapting a character to GURPS is so difficult; most stories do not build them with GURPS or any other process that forces the creator(s) to put the characters through a wide spectrum of life.

I bring all of this up because most of what you bring up for Spider-Man and trying to come up with a means of bringing down his CP costs fall into this category and into being point crocks that (were I your GM) would be forbidden unless you could supply a good reason for them within the narrative! I am allowing that there might be such a reason in theory; your "Spiders don't have fine manipulators argument" doesn't work. This is Spider-Man and not Man-Spider so he's got fine manipulators and you have not supplied a logical reason for why he would have some supposedly spider based powers* that arbitrarily do and don't work despite his physiology being nearly as far from spider-like as any other human's. ;)

*Personally I think his classic power set makes more sense as manifestations of psi, especially in a superhero setting. An enhanced nervous system (including brain) explain his reflexes, how is already gifted mind developed Gadgeteer (he's made more than just his web-shooters!) and possible his Danger Sense, with tactile telekinesis explaining the clinging and super strength. This was before Marvel kept altering his powers because apparently later writers realized Spider-Man could be more spidery, but after we were introduced to the MC2 Spider-Girl who could not only cling to objects, but repel them with enough force to be an effective attack!

[Phantasm]

Let's take a look at the later redo of Spidey's power set:

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

SPIDER-MAN

Strength Level: Spider-Man possesses superhuman strength enabling him to lift (press) 10 tons.
Known Superhuman Powers: Because his body was mutated by the genetically-enhanced spider that bit him transferring some of its own DNA into his body, Spider-Man possesses a number of spider-related powers.

Spider-Man's entire physiology was altered by the spider bite. His strength and agility are many times that of a normal person's. His fingers and toes have tiny, microscopic claws which enable him to cling to most surfaces, and his leg muscles have been altered to enable him to leap tremendous distances. This enhanced musculature also gives him a perfect sense of balance.

Spider-Man's senses have been enhanced by the spider's DNA merging with his own. Because of this, his reflexes are greatly enhanced. His senses are attuned in such a way that he is able to perceive bullets in flight, enabling him to dodge them if he is far enough away. He also has a type of danger sense, which he calls his "spider-sense", which enables him to detect imminent danger; although the sense does not tell him the nature of the danger, he can tell the severity and immediacy of the danger by how strong the sensation is.

Attributes: ST 22/112 [20‡]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 14 [80]; HT 12 [20].

Secondary Characteristics: Dmg 2d/4d (12d/14d); BL 97 lbs. (2,509 lbs/1.25 tons); HP 22/112 [0]; Will 14 [0]; Per 14 [0]; FP 20 [24]; Basic Speed 8.00 [0]; Basic Move 8 [0]; Dodge 15.

Advantages: Brachiator [5]; Clinging (Passive Biological, -5%) [19]; Danger Sense (ESP, -10%) [14]; Enhanced Dodge 3 [45]; Enhanced Time Sense (Super, -10%) [41]; Extra DX +6 (Super, -10%) [108]; Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction */10; Limited: Crushing Attacks, -40%; Super, -10%) [75]; Perfect Balance (Super, -10%) [14]; Super Jump 2 (Biological, -10%) [18]; Super ST +10/+100 (Super, -10%) [360].

‡ Includes +10/+100 from Super ST.

"His superstrength isn't on all the time." That's what Super ST is there to reflect. Most of the time, he's ST 22, but by spending 1 FP he can push it to ST 112; should his powers be negated, he's ST 12 (up from his original 9, due to the spider-DNA "retrovirus").

Much the same with his DX, though he's not spending FP for that. His biology has been altered to give him a natural DX 12 (again up from his original DX 9, and bought off his Klutz in the process), and when not negated he's at DX 16. Note that this is Spidey when he's only had his powers for a year; he'd probably spend earned XP on his Super DX. :)

"His powers are probably best done as psionic." Note that his Danger Sense is ESP, and hence psionic, and a case could probably be made for his ETS. Not sure about Clinging and Super ST being tactile telekinesis, though a case could be made one way or another. In this particular build, his clinging is due to microscopic claws that fit through the fingers of his gloves and soles of his shoes, making it a physical adaptation. If going tactile telekinesis, just replace "Super" for his Super ST and "Passive Biological" for his Clinging with "Psychokinetic".

Otaku, Flyndarin, Culture20, Infornific... I love you guys. :)

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

"His powers are probably best done as psionic." Note that his Danger Sense is ESP, and hence psionic, and a case could probably be made for his ETS. Not sure about Clinging and Super ST being tactile telekinesis, though a case could be made one way or another. In this particular build, his clinging is due to microscopic claws that fit through the fingers of his gloves and soles of his shoes, making it a physical adaptation. If going tactile telekinesis, just replace "Super" for his Super ST and "Passive Biological" for his Clinging with "Psychokinetic".

Otaku, Flyndarin, Culture20, Infornific... I love you guys. :)

Glad you enjoy what normally makes people want to avoid me. XD

Not to distract too much from the real discussion, but as I already brought it up:

When I began to think of Peter Parker as more of a Psi-der Man than Spider-Man was the late 90s. Spider-Girl (from the MC2) could basically reverse her clinging to propel objects, and even though Spider-Man 2099 used talons to climb, I didn't see the microscopic claws presented until the 2002 Spider-Man film. If it significantly predates that, my bad. ^^' Around this time we also had the Con-El version of Super-Boy, introduced as part of Reign of the Supermen. He popularized tactile telekinesis (not a specific GURPS trait, just the fictional concept), or at least I thought he did. In Marvel Vs. DC his opponent was the Ben Reilly Spider-Man, and the two were fused as Spider-Boy in Amalgam Comics. If I hadn't considered this before hand, it was like someone on that creative team was clubbing me over the head with it.

Plus over in Earth X Reed Richards used Cerebro by stretching his brain. Not his mind, part of his brain; apparently in that subset of Marvel-dom, telepathy is the result of a physical alteration in the human brain, and nearly all powers in the Marvel Universe were revealed to be due to the Celestials machinations and manipulations. Put all of that in the blender of my brain and before we started adding in organic web-shooters, venom, talons, etc. and the idea that the irradiated Spider-Venom simply was the catalyst to trigger Peter Parker's otherwise dormant "power gene" that unlocked the potential already built into humanity by the Celestials, and I found I enjoyed the character more as a four-color human with an enhanced nervous system that enables psionic powers of a more fanciful bent.

Trying to loosely tie this back into the current discussion, this is why I try to find out what all you consider canon for your vision, especially with your preference for a period that begins a bit before I was a regular reader and why we might both be baffled by suggestions made from contemporary readers.

Addendum: Additionally IIRC GURPS Supers (Second Edition) brings up Spider-Man as an example of how seemingly unrelated Advantages can make a coherent power set. GURPS and its rules were also a major factor of how I reconsidered different characters. ;)

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Otaku

...
Addendum: Additionally IIRC GURPS Supers (Second Edition) brings up Spider-Man as an example of how seemingly unrelated Advantages can make a coherent power set. GURPS and its rules were also a major factor of how I reconsidered different characters. ;)

They aren't really coherent though. Super strength, toughness, agility, touch levitation, and short time range e.s.p don't sound anything at all like spiders. The webbing is the only thing that does, and if I remember correctly, isn't even an intrinsic biological ability of all of his incarnations.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

They aren't really coherent though. Super strength, toughness, agility, touch levitation, and short time range e.s.p don't sound anything at all like spiders. The webbing is the only thing that does, and if I remember correctly, isn't even an intrinsic biological ability of all of his incarnations.

Yes and that was the point the GURPS supplement I think I am remembering was making. Keep in mind it was for 3e whatever it was, and I think it was was from GURPS Supers Second Edition. As it did away with the Power Groups of the original GURUPS Supers, it recommending allowing only concepts that had some sort of coherent theme... but sometimes a superhero theme only makes sense after the fluff.

With Spider-Man, ignoring anything but his classic power set

• Super Strength
• High Dexterity/Evasive capacity
• Limited ESP capabilities
• Clinging to surfaces
• Brachiating
• Binding Attacks

I may have missed a few, but I think I got most of the iconic stuff. Remembering that this is for a four-color setting (especially early Spider-Man), proportionate strength of a spider covers the Super Strength, spider-like agility and reflexes covers the text. His Spider-Sense, likely paired with Enhanced Time Sense and maybe even a few levels of Enhanced Dodge, represents a combination of abnormally acute but also mostly subconscious improvements to his perceptions... again we aren't worried about hard and fast biology with this version of Spider-Man. Hence why he doesn't have some bizarre blend of human and spider-anatomy, or worrying about all the stuff that only applies to an actual spider at a realistic spider's size.

His Clinging was justified because spiders do it in the real world, even though in reality it is just because at their size and weight, their claws are doing actual climbing. Again, Stan Lee & company were being fanciful. Brachiatior kind of makes sense as while a spider doesn't really do it, a human moving sort-of like a spider needs that option. Or maybe a spider does and I have too limited a concept for brachiating.

The webbing provides a binding attack, built in grappling hook and rope, etc. and is supplied via gadget, but is otherwise on theme for the "spider powers" concept. For a four-color hero this fits pretty well; in some ways having his accident fail to give him every power one would expect of a spider made it seem just a tiny bit more grounded in reality.

So again, the point was that separately most of these Advantages look unrelated, but together with the fluff adjusted, we get Spider-Man.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

[...]
Aesthetically Spider-Man certainly has fine manipulators, sure. But fine manipulators you can't actually use have the same effect as No Manipulators. You don't literally have to fulfill the criteria, just the effect of the criteria.

This is obvious is one of the basic set examples where they talk about walking on your hands. Same logic.

You and I have fine manipulators too, but we temporarily would not have them while throwing a full-strength punch, because balling our hands into a fist removes our fine manipulation ability. We also can't do any fine manipulation with our hands while holding a handstand, due to the primal strain of it.

His powers working or not working isn't arbitrary, it's in line with a spider's primal movement instincts and Peter gaining those moreso than merely a human-based tier of agility. He's a better jumper/climber/grabber/rappeller than he is a shooter/dancer/fencer.

He should definitely have some pure DX boost but he should also have some primal DX boost that comes with No Fine Manipulators. Same with strength. Not all of his attributes should require this but his highest levels should and that would cut down on their cost.

Taking No Fine Manipulators for not being able to manipulate things while punching or doing a handstand is effectively a zero point feature. I think Spidey would have a similar situation with his powers.

Assuming that your approach is legal, I still don't like it. We would be complicating the character sheet for very little gain in verisimilitude. Besides, considering the point levels tbrock is using for the setting, the point savings for this added complexity are insignificant.

[PK]

"Cannot use hands while already using hands" is a tautology, and thus the default assumption for any character in any system.

If you're using your hands to do (A), then you don't get points for not being able to simultaneously use your hands to do (B), (C), or (D). In fact, if you want to do multiple hand-related things at once, that's what Extra Arms are for.

[Phantasm]

PARALYZER

Real Name: Randall Darby.
Occupation: Government agent, former professional criminal, alleged former customer service representative.
Identity: Known to the authorities.
Legal Status: Citizen of the United States with a pardoned criminal record.
Other Aliases: None.
Place of Birth: Unrevealed.
Marital Status: Single.
Known Relatives: None.
Group Affiliation: Freedom Force.
Base of Operations: Washington, DC.
History: Not much is known about Paralyzer before his first appearance. He claims to have worked a dozen call centers before deciding to use his powers as a criminal.

He, along with the rest of the team that would come to be known as Freedom Force, first came to public attention when they attempted to rob an armored car in Washington, DC, only to have their efforts thwarted by Captain America and his partner-in-training, Bucky, who were there to testify in front of the Senate Committee on Superhuman Affairs (see Bucky; Captain America; Freedom Force).

While sitting in a federal prison awaiting trial, Paralyzer and his teammates were given the option to become government agents under the direction of Department of Homeland Security agent Valerie Cooper as an alternative to SHIELD's Sentinel program, in exchange for having the charges for their armored car robbery dropped (see SHIELD; Sentinels). Accepting, Paralyzer and the others were given the name Freedom Force.

As a member of Freedom Force, Paralyzer has come into conflict with the Renegades and Captain America, the latter in a case of mistaken intentions while both were investigating the Serpent Squad (see Renegades; Serpent Squad).
Height: 6'
Weight: 200 lbs.
Eyes: Brown.
Hair: Brown.
Uniform: Purple bodysuit, metallic silver/steel hand coverings, red boots, black belt; formerly a black domino mask (which didn't hide his identity).
Strength Level: Paralyzer possesses the normal human strength of a man his age, height, and build who engages in moderate regular exercise.
Known Superhuman Powers: Paralyzer is a mutant with the ability to generate and project incredible amounts of bioelectricity from his body. His electric blasts can be tuned to merely stun or as strong as to electrocute a person. He is also able to create an electric field which he can extend to fill a typical aircraft hangar.

140 points
Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 11 [10].
Secondary Characteristics: Dmg 1d-1/1d+1; BL 24 lbs.; HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 11 [0]; Basic Speed 5.50 [0]; Basic Move 5 [0]; Dodge 8.
Languages: English (Native) (Native Language) [0].
Cultural Familiarities: Western [0].
Advantages: Affliction (Stun Bolt) 6 (HT-5; Armor Divisor (2), +50%; Damage Modifier: Surge, +20%; Increased 1/2D Range (×5), +10%; Elemental: Electricity, -10%; Mutant, -10%) [96]; Burning Attack (Electric Bolt) 6d (Damage Modifier: Surge, Arcing, +100%; Increased 1/2D Range (×5), +10%; Variable, +5%; Elemental: Electricity, -10%; Mutant, -10%; Alternative Attack, ×1/5) [12]; Burning Attack (Electric Wall) 3d (Area Effect: 16 yds, +200%; Damage Modifier: Surge, +20%; Wall (Permeable): Any Shape, +60%; Elemental: Electricity, -10%; Mutant, -10%; Alternative Attack, ×1/5) [11]; DHS Rank 4 [20].
Disadvantages: Code of Honor (Pirate's) [-5]; Duty to Homeland Security (12) [-10]; Greed (12) [-15]; Lecherousness (15) [-7]; No Fine Manipulators (Accessibility: Only In Uniform, -50%) [-15]; Overconfidence (12) [-5]; Social Stigma (Criminal Record) [-5].
Quirks: Chauvinistic [-1]; Dual Identity [-1].
Skills: Brawling (E) DX+1 [2] – 12; Climbing (A) DX-1 [1] – 10; Computer Operation/TL8 (E) IQ+0 [1] – 10; Current Affairs/TL8 (Sports) (E) IQ+0 [1] – 10; Fast-Talk (A) IQ+0 [2] – 10; Hiking (A) HT-1 [1] – 10; Innate Attack (Beam) (E) DX+3 [8] – 14; Jumping (E) DX+0 [1] – 11; Law (Federal) (H) IQ-1 [2] – 9; Professional Skill (Customer Service Operator) (A) IQ+2 [8] – 12; Running (A) HT-1 [1] – 10; Savoir-Faire (Mafia) (E) IQ+0 [1] – 10; Savoir-Faire (Police) (E) IQ+0 [1] – 10; Streetwise (A) IQ+0 [2] – 10; Swimming (E) HT+0 [1] – 11; Wrestling (A) DX+1 [4] – 12.
Starting Spending Money: $4,000 (20% of Starting Wealth).

Role-Playing Notes:
Paralyzer is a mercenary, in a cause only for the money. He appreciates that he's getting a stable paycheck in Freedom Force, but won't hesitate to take the occasional side job on either side of the law if he thinks he can get away with it. He is also quite the womanizer, making a pass at any available attractive woman, including – to her chagrin – his boss, Val Cooper!

Design Notes:
1. DHS Rank is derived from Social Engineering: Pulling Rank, based off using the Department of Homeland Security as a 20-point Patron with an assistance roll of 9 or less. It does not affect his Status.
2. I went with "Paralyzer" rather than "Shocker" for his name because of the two names he's used in the comics I thought it was the better one. The Resistants had some really good names in their line-up (and a few generic ones... I'm looking at you, Quill).
3. Sadly, I don't have a pic of him with the metal over his hands and feet like his Resistants outfit had, but in an outfit closer to his Mutant Force uniform. I'm wary of giving him claws like his 616 version. Really, how does he stand on those feet-claws?

[Phantasm]

Hellboy, your line of conversation is at times seriously threatening to derail the thread.

Therefore, I strongly urge you to start a new thread to follow this line of thought, rather than potentially threadjacking this one. The conversation is only tangentially related to the Spider-Man write-up which triggered it, which itself has been overwritten by a later write-up of the character. Note that this is not Spider-Man as he has been presented in any given media - and he's been in many - but for an entirely new timeline. We're worldbuilding here :) .

I already asked PK (in private message) to give you an author's/editor's ruling on your line of thought, which he has given. Please stop derailing. Open a new thread.

(FYI, if this continues I may ask him to strip the relevant posts out of this thread and into its own. Consider this fair warning.)

[PK]

<MOD>

Phantasm, you're treading dangerously close to "junior modding." Do not threaten or give orders to other posters. Consider this an Official Warning.

</MOD>