01-31-2016, 08:43 AM | #11 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
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Perhaps it’s that I’ve slept in the meantime, but I feel a bit silly now as someone new to the game having argued against an official rule with people who have years of experience. Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate it. |
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01-31-2016, 10:07 AM | #12 |
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
To prevent your players from doing these feats:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm even if they'll roll 3 on the 3d6. Sounds like special rule to hard players which don't respect "GM authority" and always answer "show me preventing rule in the book". Last edited by GWJ; 01-31-2016 at 10:11 AM. |
01-31-2016, 10:31 AM | #13 |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
Isn't part of this the mentality of favoring the "defensive" option in GURPS?
Instead of looking at it as "Defense Rolls always have a chance, so why not all rolls?" look at it as "If odds of success fall below rolling a three on 3d6, the task is considered functionally impossible and so you don't even get to roll for it. The exception being for Defense Rolls, just because as a matter of keeping the game fun, we've found that it is better to still allow a Defense Roll no matter what." The only hiccup then becomes why Critical Successes on an attack roll don't still allow a Defense Roll in the case of a Critical Success there as well.
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
01-31-2016, 10:38 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
That's turning every failure into a critical failure because you want me to cut it out, but can't be bothered to tell me that. Not Cool. If you want me to stop doing something, just tell me to stop doing something.
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01-31-2016, 01:13 PM | #15 | |
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
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Setting aside the question of balanced game mechanics, this is not really how I would approach it as GM. If I tell a player that their character can’t even try something there has to be an in-game explanation for it. By now I am convinced that the rule of “no success roll below 3” is sensible, mainly because the mechanics don’t support extremely low probabilities. In these cases I would still allow a PC to try anything as long as it was in character and just tell them without a roll that they failed. |
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01-31-2016, 01:34 PM | #16 |
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
Ranged attack are the obvious way to abuse this.
Quick gadgetering is probably a close second, although the crit failures should keep things interesting... Also, don't forget super luck ... if I succeed on a 3 no matter what, it is a must buy. Intuition(winning lotery number) is also a great money maker... Celjabba |
01-31-2016, 10:40 PM | #17 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dobbstown Sane Asylum
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
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Imagine a group of PCs with unimpressive Guns skills (say, 10 to 12) who need to snipe a quickly moving target through the eye from a little under a mile away. Even with a decent sniper rifle, the shooter's effective skill would be at +6 (Acc) +2 (full Aim) -18 (range) -9 (eye) = -19 to skill. There are expanded rules to get a slightly better bonus, but the point is he's definitely in the negatives. Now let's say your house rule would let him succeed on a 3-4 even if he's negative. Why bother with the nice sniper rifle, if he's probably going to critically fail anyway? Instead, he takes a box full of cheap pistols up onto the roof and starts having his friends hand him one, he shoots it, it explodes or jams (good thing he's wearing armor), and so he shoots another one. At this rate, he can fire once every two seconds, so he'll put a bullet through his target's eye in (on average) just under a minute. The target is moving at supersonic speeds? No problem, because his chance to hit is the same. The target is actually a tiny transmitter (SM -10)? Same chance to hit. The shooter is operating in pitch black darkness? Just another -10, same chance to hit. That's the problem with establishing an "auto-win" situation. No matter how likely it makes a critical failure, it also means that (A) past a certain point, penalties mean nothing, and that (B) because literally anything can succeed, there's no reason not to keep trying again and again.
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01-31-2016, 11:08 PM | #18 | |
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
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So again I'd say that if we are going to question anything, it would be the charitable rules that state you always get a Defense Roll. I don't think I would enjoy it much as a player to lose that, but that seems like the real inconsistency. If one really wants to allow for far lower chances of success (or failure), verification rolls seem in order. Everything stays the same as now except if a situation occurs where a critical success or failure makes little sense as a result with the usual probability (but eliminating entirely similarly breaks suspension of disbelief or possibly something even more important)... add a second roll. All the second roll does is verify the critical nature of the first. A double three or double eighteen is hopefully all that would be needed to represent the most extreme of odds worth nitpicking over, and I offer this not as a tried and tested "solution" because I don't see a real problem in the first place that it solves. Plus I think I only used it a few times. With mixed results. Over 15 years ago. XD
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My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :) |
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02-01-2016, 05:58 AM | #19 |
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Behind You
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
Am I the only one who sees this obvious use case?
"Hey, I'm an Ant, I'm gonna try grapple and pin the PC! Oh look, critical success!" Just saying.
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02-02-2016, 01:25 PM | #20 |
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Re: Success rolls: effective skill below 3
Thanks again, guys, for the added explanations, especially from PK. I get it now. As I said in the beginning I have just started learning the rules (didn’t even know about things like super luck yet) and it’s really nice to get so many helpful responses.
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