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Old 04-27-2019, 04:14 AM   #1
Shaira
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

Hi everyone,

Both ITL p116 and Melee p17 say:

"A figure may move into an enemy figure's hex, initiating HTH combat, if (a) the enemy has his back to the wall, or is lying down, prone, or kneeling, or (b) the enemy has a lower MA, or (c) the attacker comes in from the rear, or (d) the enemy agrees to HTH combat. Initiating HTH combat is considered an attack."

This seems to suggest that a defender with a higher MA than an attacker trying to initiate HTH combat may simply refuse to enter HTH combat. However, I'm not quite sure how this is intended to interact with the 1d roll to determine how the defender reacts - results 5 and 6 seem to clearly indicate that the defender doesn't want to engage in HTH.

Here's my imagined scenario: two characters are engaged in melee, one drops his weapon. Instead of trying to pick it up, he simply throws himself at his opponent, intending to initiate HTH. However, the opponent has a higher MA, and obviously prefers to keep hacking at the unarmed guy with his sword. Can he simply decide to refuse the "invitation" to enter HTH? IE, in such an instance only fighters with a higher MA than their opponent may force them to engage in HTH? Or does the very act of trying to initiate HTH automatically precipitate the 1d roll, which itself assumes the defender is going to try and fend off the attempt to initiate HTH? Or am I misreading things?

Cheers,

Sarah
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Old 04-27-2019, 08:36 AM   #2
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

If the 'attacker's MA is lower than the 'defender' and none of the special tactical situations mentioned applies, then the attempt to enter HTH cannot be made and no die roll occurs. If the attacker meets one of the three preconditions, then you use the 1d roll to resolve what happens when he or she attempts to enter HTH. It is possible for this system to yield irrational results (like, the attacker having to back away from a weapon or receive a free attack when jumping on someone from behind). I believe those situations should receive a table ruling so that nothing crazy occurs. And, it can feel a bit odd that every attempt to enter HTH is a risky, 'who knows what could happen' sort of thing that doesn't depend on DX or skill of the combatants. But, that's how it works. I suggest not thinking about it too deeply; it works pretty well in a game-ist sense. It is sort of like the basic initiative roll in this sense.

So, in the situation you describe, assuming the combatants are just faced off on open terrain, no attempt to enter HTH can be made.

I hope that helps, and welcome to the TFT cult!!!
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Old 04-27-2019, 09:17 AM   #3
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

The question that entered my mind was that if the defender is willing to enter HTH, do you still roll the 1d6 on the table (Melee p18) to see exactly how? A 5 or 6 means there's no HTH, even though both parties were willing to enter HTH. Perhaps in that case, those two entries should be dropped, and it should just be 1-3 barehanded, 4-6 enough time to draw a dagger.
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Old 04-28-2019, 01:06 AM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
... It is possible for this system to yield irrational results (like, the attacker having to back away from a weapon or receive a free attack when jumping on someone from behind). I believe those situations should receive a table ruling so that nothing crazy occurs. And, it can feel a bit odd that every attempt to enter HTH is a risky, 'who knows what could happen' sort of thing that doesn't depend on DX or skill of the combatants. But, that's how it works. I suggest not thinking about it too deeply; it works pretty well in a game-ist sense. It is sort of like the basic initiative roll in this sense.
Since the HTH initiation roll is so simple and makes it so likely to tackle the defender, I think it is reasonable and good that there are such limits. It does not seem irrational or crazy that you need to be faster than someone to tackle them to the ground unless you can them cornered or manage to get around their guard. In fact, the situation seems generous to me to the people trying to tackle armed figures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
So, in the situation you describe, assuming the combatants are just faced off on open terrain, no attempt to enter HTH can be made.
Not that turn, but they can Disengage, and then if they win initiative, attempt to run around to initiate HTH from behind, if the map position allows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The question that entered my mind was that if the defender is willing to enter HTH, do you still roll the 1d6 on the table (Melee p18) to see exactly how? A 5 or 6 means there's no HTH, even though both parties were willing to enter HTH. Perhaps in that case, those two entries should be dropped, and it should just be 1-3 barehanded, 4-6 enough time to draw a dagger.
Good question. It looks to me like being willing to enter HTH is just a waiver of the requirements to initiate HTH, but it doesn't apply to the results of the initiation. So simplest and RAW would be to just roll the die as it says. (But a GM may want to rule or develop how that works when the defender announces varieties of intent when allowing HTH.)
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Old 04-28-2019, 06:33 AM   #5
oldwolf
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

I think this is a very good rule. Consider how easily heavily armored characters could turn most battles into wrestling matches, where their armor makes them mostly immune to the damage of hth weapons. At the same time their lightly or unarmored opponents would be quite vulnerable to those same hth weapons. As it stands this rule encourages thoughtful maneuver and helps to maintain game balance.
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Old 04-28-2019, 10:31 AM   #6
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

The best way to initiate HTH is from above, but first ensure that you have 3 points of armor, a 2d HTH attack, and are a wizard.
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Old 04-29-2019, 08:49 AM   #7
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

[QUOTE=Skarg;2258947] ...It does not seem irrational or crazy that you need to be faster than someone to tackle them to the ground unless you can them cornered or manage to get around their guard. .../QUOTE]

I wasn't questioning the basic rule about prerequisites for initiating HTH; those strike me as quite sensible. What I had in mind is the case where you try to enter HTH from behind but roll a 5 on 'entry' roll (meaning you are forced back into the hex from which you approached). That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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Old 04-29-2019, 09:30 AM   #8
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

[QUOTE=larsdangly;2259190]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I wasn't questioning the basic rule about prerequisites for initiating HTH; those strike me as quite sensible. What I had in mind is the case where you try to enter HTH from behind but roll a 5 on 'entry' roll (meaning you are forced back into the hex from which you approached). That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Elbow poke? Ought'a be an attribute roll by the defender.
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Old 04-29-2019, 10:33 AM   #9
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

It is good as is, but it would have also been good if it had been based on attributes and/or talents in some fashion.
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Old 04-29-2019, 11:17 PM   #10
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Initiating Hand-to-Hand Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
...It does not seem irrational or crazy that you need to be faster than someone to tackle them to the ground unless you can them cornered or manage to get around their guard. ...
I wasn't questioning the basic rule about prerequisites for initiating HTH; those strike me as quite sensible. What I had in mind is the case where you try to enter HTH from behind but roll a 5 on 'entry' roll (meaning you are forced back into the hex from which you approached). That one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
During a five-second turn, with I-go, you-go movement, it makes more sense to me to allow a chance to resist being tackled from behind, than it would to allow them to always succeed, even moreso since they can include run-around movement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
It is good as is, but it would have also been good if it had been based on attributes and/or talents in some fashion.
On this I completely agree (and q.v. GURPS), but of course that'd be for the House Rules subforum.
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