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Old 03-27-2018, 03:27 PM   #21
whswhs
 
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Default Re: GM's PC

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
I found them useful in the form of flagging the PCs in the right direction if they get hopelessly lost. Or providing the transport to the next scene.

More often they are not present, maybe a phone call away but nothing really involved.
I don't think that's what "GMPC" usually refers to; it seems far too occasional a presence. I'd just call it an NPC. Not every character played by a GM is a GMPC.
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Old 03-27-2018, 05:49 PM   #22
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Default Re: GM's PC

If you want to show off effective battle tactics, suggest the players hire 3-4 guards for their horses, then give them the guards’ sheets after the PCs leave, and have a competent but overconfident enemy attack them. Start with a stiletto in the eye, another knife in the kidney, then let the players trounce him once surprise is over. When the PCs come back, the surviving guards will have a story to tell (embellished), and the players will have learned that surprises can be deadly, and numbers give you a huge advantage without risking their PCs.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: GM's PC

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Originally Posted by cabaiomonte View Post
So. GM's PCs. should they be avoided altogether? should they be demoted to NPCs? sidekicks? even with unprepared players? GURPS' Manuals are silents on it and can't give me any advice on the matter
There are three main warning signs I look for in a game that tell me it's going to go wrong.

1) A GM PC. The GM already has more "game time" than any other player, since he's the central focus of the game and controls the NPCs, so there's no need for him to have his own character in the game. This usually turns into an ego trip where the GM PC is more capable than any of the other PC's and winds up stealing the spotlight from any of the other players, turning into his own personal Deus Ex Machina.

2) Too many players. Usually a group larger than 5-6 players is getting too big. With groups this large Players don't get enough spotlight time, and their "action" turns begin to turn into endless repetitions of "Oh, my turn? What's going on? OK, I hit him with my axe."

3) The GM's significant other (SO) is a player. This one is very dependent on their relationship, so is not as automatically toxic as #1 & #2, but can be toxic if the SO is manipulative either leading to the SO getting everything they want and constant spotlight attention (detracting from the other players) or to constant bickering taking away from the game. OTOH, if the couple has a healthy relationship this can be perfectly fine. I've also seen similar toxic behavior come from best friends in the same situation, and I had two friends who were brothers who were perfectly fine to play with individually but together they would always find a reason to get in a huge argument. So, again, depends heavily on the relationship dynamics.


Regarding #1) There is a distinction between a GM PC and a prominent GM NPC. Especially in smaller groups it can be difficult to have all the basic character niche's covered. The main difference here is that a prominent GM NPC fulfills his niche and not much more. If the group lacks a healer but really wants one it's fine for the GM to bring a healer NPC in that tags along with the group. However, outside of healing he should generally be less capable than the PCs. And, of course, the world is going to be full of NPCs that show up and work with the PCs, and some may even be more capable than the PCs in areas that a particular PC usually spotlights in, but they should have fleeting affairs with the party not be a constant member of it.

Regarding #2), I've seen good GMs pull off large groups, but it's rare. The best example I ever saw was a Wife/Husband GM team who managed a group as large as 12-14 players by breaking off smaller groups from the main party and running simultaneous side adventures.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: GM's PC

GM PCs who adventure with the party, I generally have healbots when no-one wants to play the role. Their job is to support the party in their role of being awesome.

The other kind of NPC I've used is there for a reason, e.g. he hired the party or has been despatched as an agent of the King to guide/keep an eye on them etc. They tend not to do any fighting unless absolutely necessary, even if quite capable.

A PC in the line of Badass McSwordMaster is generally not a good GM PC if he hangs around the party a lot. Short term it can be OK...longer term I'd probably make him an overconfident showboater and play it for comic relief or have him be a bad guy depending on how the party reacted to him.

Worst of the worst is the GM PC who overshadows the party and bosses them around. Have never seen that happen after high school but it seems to be enough of a problem that angsty ultra-powered GM PCs are something of a cliché in the online community.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:45 PM   #25
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Default Re: GM's PC

I am super against GMPCs.

And what is the difference between a GMPC and a very prominent GM NPC? It is a difference in investment.

I was running a GURPS Traveller: ISW game and the captain of the ship was an NPC. I think I had a full character sheet for her? Now the Captain of a Free Trader run by the GM and a full character sheet? Oh no! But you know what? She worked because she wasn't a GMPC. She was still a GM NPC.

What made her a GM NPC and not a GMPC? I, as a GM, was not invested in the captain in any way differently than I was invested in any other NPC. I continuously found reasons for the captain not to be involved in the on surface shenanigans. Someone had to stay and watch the ship while in port, and that was the captain. And let me tell you...I tried so hard to get the captain killed so that the players would be on their own....but they kept saving her. Did they save her because they loved the NPC so much? I don't actually think so. It was because there were two different factions in the PC group, one that was more ethical, and one that was ... less ethical. The leader of the more ethical faction (the Pilot) would have been the new captain if the old captain died and the Pilot would have been a lot more hands on than the NPC Captain. So the Less Ethical Comms Officer kept the NPC Captain alive to keep the More Ethical Pilot out of the Captain's Chair so that he and the Merchant could keep doing all sorts of shenanigans the Pilot wouldn't approve of.

It was actually hilarious.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:53 PM   #26
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Default Re: GM's PC

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What made her a GM NPC and not a GMPC? I, as a GM, was not invested in the captain in any way differently than I was invested in any other NPC.
That's basically the key as I see it, too. When I ran Whispers, for example, Constanza, Gianni's daughter, kept appearing on camera a lot; but she was there because the players liked her, and to give Gianni a chance to play the role of single father, and to take part in the gatherings of the PCs as a social group. I tried to make her plausible as an 11-year-old girl, but I didn't identify with her the way I would have with a PC. And there were lots of times when she wasn't on camera, including nearly all the times when the PCs were working on cases; it would really have been abusive to have her be Constanza Fiori, Girl Detective, since I would have had to warp the realism level away from what worked for the PCs.
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Old 03-27-2018, 10:31 PM   #27
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I'm against GMPCs, my reasoning is that the big distinction between a PC and an NPC is being part of the party in group.

The playes as a party have an agreement to never betray eachother, and ostensibly have the same mutual shared goal with any divergences transparent to other party members.

These are all limitations on the characters of course, but nessissery ones in most cases becouse as real people the players need to be on civil terms and work together.

The exception though is the GM and his npcs who by design are able to challenge the party. An npc is free to work separately, against, or outright betray the party. As I see it the character acting as a GMPC is limited in their potential for growth and ergo boring to play with.

Now of course I'm painting in broad strokes here, some of the best tention I've had in games was when two PCs were working against eachother but besides that one time it was great it's always ended with real life drama.
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: GM's PC

Instead of running a PC as GM to show how the system works, I usually have everyone make their characters with me so I know what they want them to be able to do and they know that I've just okayed their characters for the stuff they want to do with them.

Then instead of the first session of the campaign, I run a hogan's ally kind of session with all sorts of random combat role play scenarios that are indicative of the sort of things the party with encounter. Then we talk about what happened and if necessary we review/rewrite/remake the characters and then we start the campaign with some idea of what to expect. Listen to your players, in some cases saying "no" is the right thing but a lot of the time say "yes,BUT..." and make things interesting.

Sorry, I'm trying to stay positive and I'm going on the idea that the OP is coming from an honest desire to teach gurps and not have some kind of ego trip which is usually the case with GMPCs.
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:14 AM   #29
whswhs
 
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Default Re: GM's PC

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Originally Posted by Minuteman37 View Post
I'm against GMPCs, my reasoning is that the big distinction between a PC and an NPC is being part of the party in group.

The playes as a party have an agreement to never betray eachother, and ostensibly have the same mutual shared goal with any divergences transparent to other party members.
That's a common assumption, but not unavoidable. I ran, for example, a Mage: The Ascension campaign where three of the PCs were Wu Lung and one was Wu-keng, two Chinese crafts that had been enemies for thousands of years (the Wu Lung were allied to a Virtual Adept and the Wu-keng to an Akashic Brother). And I ran a fantasy campaign where each player had four characters—a senior aristocratic wizard, an adolescent/young adult aristocratic wizard, a guard, and a servant—and there were some conflicts between them. Both went well and were enjoyed by the players; in fact I'd call the fantasy campaign one of my best ever.
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Old 03-28-2018, 12:55 AM   #30
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Default Re: GM's PC

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Originally Posted by cabaiomonte View Post
So. GM's PCs. should they be avoided altogether? should they be demoted to NPCs? sidekicks? even with unprepared players? GURPS' Manuals are silents on it and can't give me any advice on the matter
Oh Boy, I’m gonna go against the wave but I think GMPCs can be well done even if hard to pull off. If by GMPC you mean an NPC that will be sticking with the group and share their adventure, then yes, I think it’s totally possible to make it right. Here’s some guideline I try to keep in mind.

1. GMPCs should NEVER be stronger than any PCs, it’s fine for have an ally temporary NPC as a scenario tool, but it should never overstay it’s welcome, otherwise it will steal spotlight from the player and that won’t make for a very fun game.

2. GMPCs should never step on other PCs toes and should always fill missing role that the player wasn’t interesting in filling. I find that support GMPCs are generally easier to make right than any other kind role, and if no player is interested in playing that role, they tend to be happy to have someone healing or enhancing them in anyway. Any unfilled role could be done well if the support role is already filled by a player, but I would avoid the ‘’face’’ role at all cost, unless your group isn’t interested in roleplaying scene, otherwise you’ll end up talking with yourself and that not very fun for anyone.

3. Try to have your GMPC personality likable otherwise you’re he will only get on the nerve of your player. For example, you should avoid the backstabbing greedy thief archetype, nobody likes having them around.

4. Considering all that, you should have a strong idea of what your players characters will be like before even planning to think about GMPC, so you make sure to plan one that won’t steal spotlight to your players.

5. Do not impose your GMPC on the group! You should ask your player beforehand if they mind having an NPC sticking around and they should be reminded that at any time if they start getting annoyed by the GMPC presence that you will retire it from the game.

6. If your player wants an ally around, with high chance of appearance, you should check with him to see if you could play that ally as a GMPC.

7. Avoid favoritism at all cost be even harsher with your GMPC than you are with your player, in a gritty game that will help to set the tone and in a comical game, your GMPC will come out as comic relief and chances are your player will appreciate him more. You should avoid fudging the roll favorably in your GMPC’s favor, unless it’s to help your player shine more and you should definitely avoid Fudging critical hit your GMPC takes, that will help setting a more dramatic tone. Worst case scenario, your GMPC will die and it will make for a memorable moment. I find that rolling most your GMPC rolls in front of your player help dismissing the idea that you’re biased toward your GMPC, if your players see the dices result they can’t blame you of being unfair.

8. That one is rather obvious, but you should really separate between your GM knowledge and your GMPC’s knowledge. When having to make a decision for the character there’s multiple way to make sure you do not use your Meta-game knowledge. First, you make your GMPC undecisive, and roll with the player decision. Second, you stop and think a second about how the character would react or think in the given situation. Finally, if you’re unsure or you really don’t thrust yourself, you can always roll randomly to determine its reaction.

9.Your GMPC action should never take away ‘’Screen Time’’ from your player. Basicaly that mean that you shouldn’t play the GMPC if players aren’t involved.
10.Try keeping your GMPC as mechanically simple as he can be because while running your game sessions you won’t have much brain processing power left and if your GMPC is mechanically to complicated you’ll just forget about 90% of it’s abilities. I would avoid things like magic and overly complicated subsystem that will eat game time, unless you REALLY know it by hearth. If you absolutely need a Mage GMPC I would keep him really simple, things like healing, a damage dealing spell, or some very basic control spell and some basic spell mages are expected to know like detect magic and counterspell. An exception to this, could be a Diviner, Diviner player are generally hard for GM to manage because you have to plan incredibly far ahead, but as an GMPC you have control over what he asks, and it can be an interesting plot device.

That’s not an exhaustive list, that’s just some basic advice I can think at the top of my head, but it basically boil down to this: Use your GMPC to enhance your player’s fun, not to increase your own play time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabaiomonte View Post
I wanted to give them a character to show them all the sick moves they can do in GURPS (with moderation, i guess. i think it's a pretty fine balance between too many and too few options).
I would refrain from having said GMPC showing ‘’sick moves’’ while it matters. You could use the GMPC as a mentor to teach them how to fight, gives them it’s basic trick, but if it’s done while it matters I think that would be stealing some spotlight from the player, and you would run the risk of annoying them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabaiomonte View Post
Meet Orazio Astali, a martial artist with a vow of silence (i hope this make it easier for me to not make it interfere in the roling heavy parts, but i'm afraid it can get really annoying or so they told me).
A Gm of mine already used a wise monk with a Vow of Silence and he would go as far as trying to talk with us using only gestures, I thought it was a really good idea, and I had fun with it. We forgot he was there so many time, but then we would be reminded he was here and we were all like ‘’ Oh yeah, you’re still here! We didn’t mean to ignore you sorry!’’ it became a running gag and it was funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabaiomonte View Post
I hope that if he gets to stay won't steal the show from the pc and therefore he's a little bit less optimal.
You don’t need to have him less optimal, you just need to make sure he won’t step on your players toes. If you’re running a combat heavy campaign, having him fighting off mooks and protecting the backline while the players fight the interesting enemies can be a way to make sure he won’t steal the glory.
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Originally Posted by cabaiomonte View Post
I'm planning on basically just making him throw attacks avoiding any final hit) yet i don't want him to be just fighting meat. i hope i can find the balance into making it an interesting secondary character, with a callous nature and some everyday annoyances who might make it more interesting (like the fact that he's terrible at meditation for his special tecniques and needs a quiet place which really clash with his not so joyful relations with non characters).
If you make him interesting to interact with your player are gonna have a blast with him and will like him and you’re right, I think meat shield are pretty boring GMPC to have around. I’m confident you will make him interesting enough, and you already avoided the GMPC ‘’face’’ role trap. If he’s grumpy have him being grumpy towards other NPCs and have him to be friendly around the PCs, that way player will see he’s grumpy, but they will think of it as an interesting or fun character trait rather than an annoying one.

One final thing to remember, you’re the GM, you can’t have the same playing experience as the player, because you already know what’s going to happen, you can only have an interesting recurring NPC at most.
But to be honest, I think you started off the write way, nothing ringed a bell for me while I read your GMPC description, so I wish you the best of luck and to have great fun! :)

Ps: I apologize if some things are missing, I accidentally deleted half of my text and I had to start back all over <.<
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