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Old 03-26-2018, 10:23 PM   #11
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Spaceships: Is Defensive ECM worthwhile on big ships?

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
You've got to get pretty close, though. Any sort of shielding would make most nuclear weapons practically useless beyond a few kilometers, which in terms of expect space combat ranges is practically contact. It would mostly be soft x-rays, which drop off rapidly if there isn't an atmosphere to absorb them (superheating said atmosphere in the process).
The shielding is going to get very hot from adsorbing that x-ray flash, though. If it flashes off as plasma there'll be quite a shock from the sudden thrust, and that'll be quite damaging if not carefully designed for.
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: Spaceships: Is Defensive ECM worthwhile on big ships?

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You've got to get pretty close, though. Any sort of shielding would make most nuclear weapons practically useless beyond a few kilometers, which in terms of expect space combat ranges is practically contact. It would mostly be soft x-rays, which drop off rapidly if there isn't an atmosphere to absorb them (superheating said atmosphere in the process).
Nukes also don't have high velocity projectiles built into them like slug-throwers and conventional missiles, but they do crazy more damage than conventional guns and missiles, and you basically need to use ^ tech cosmic energy guns to match them. Of course they're stupid expensive, but if we're talking about a life-or-death battle with top of the line TL9-12 battleships the nukes are probably one of the less expensive things.

One thing I thought was weird was how cheap huge battleships are. I know GURPS $ are less debased than USD, but IIRC most cutting edge stealth bombers, fighter/bombers and cruisers like the Zumwalt cost $1 billion to multiple billions each. I can build a SM +12 spaceship with superheavy hardened armor, spinal laser, missile tubes and dozens of huge rail cannons for about the same price in GURPS (2-4 billion). That not only is vastly more firepower than anything built by any army in the history of the world but it's also as large as the largest naval ships ever built - which didn't have to be built in space. Seems a bit low to me, even accounting for better technology. I mean is it at all plausible that in 2040 one can build a nuclear powered space cruiser that dwarfs the Japanese superheavy battleships for the same cost as a modern airplane? I don't think you could even build a WW2 Japanese superheavy battleship in the ocean for that price today.

Even as an abstract unit it doesn't work: the USP in High-Tech (a gun I bought) is at $770. That's a reasonable price for a new one, I purchased one for $550. So the price of small arms is basically correct to modern day bucks, but the price for spaceships is ridiculously cheap. You can buy a TL8 NASA style space plane for a few millions! The Endeavour shuttle cost $1.7 billion. Even accounting for government inefficiency that seems on the order of silly. Either that or pricing is wildly inconsistent between books.

Last edited by VonKatzen; 03-27-2018 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 03-27-2018, 12:11 AM   #13
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Default Re: Spaceships: Is Defensive ECM worthwhile on big ships?

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Also, ECM gives bonuses to your Dodge roll as long as the enemy isn't higher TL than you.
*blink* Wow. Okay, one of the hazards of having always read and theorized about these rules without having ever used them in play, I had completely missed that. Thank you. That's a nice little boost for ECM. I don't think it would change my recommendations, other than noting that very small craft facing only larger ones definitely get more mileage out of ECM than armor. If you're relying on dodge anyway, that's a good boost.

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This is incorrect - hardening doesn't do anything vs proximity attacks, as they have no armour divisor to reduce.
Aaand yeah I have no idea what I was even thinking there. Derp. I'll go back and fix that!
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Old 03-27-2018, 02:54 AM   #14
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Default Re: Spaceships: Is Defensive ECM worthwhile on big ships?

One thing to note is that large ships are a bit more survivable than small ones when facing ships of similar size, because HP, armour/screens, and beam damage scale up roughly evenly, but KE damage scales up much more slowly (and nukes/AM warheads scale only very slightly with launching ship size).

Also, as TL goes up, spaceships become increasingly fragile. Hit Points don't change with TL, and even without super-science weapon penetration outpaces armour improvements (unless the GM also adds hardening in as something only available at higher TLs). A big-ship battle at TL9 will be quite different from a small-ship fight at TL12, even with just beams.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Spaceships: Is Defensive ECM worthwhile on big ships?

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Originally Posted by VonKatzen View Post
GURPS Spaceship combat seems like it'd look a lot like Macross...nuke, nuke, laser, everything's dead.
Unless you have superscience, sure. There are some tricks and edge cases, but when your smallest nuclear warhead does 4d×1,000… and 10MT, which at TL10 fits in a 40cm missile tube, does 8d×100 even with a proximity detonation… nothing material is going to hang around for long.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: Spaceships: Is Defensive ECM worthwhile on big ships?

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Originally Posted by VonKatzen View Post
You can buy a TL8 NASA style space plane for a few millions! The Endeavour shuttle cost $1.7 billion. Even accounting for government inefficiency that seems on the order of silly. Either that or pricing is wildly inconsistent between books.
NASA wasn't mass producing spaceplanes. GURPS spaceships assumes mass production for its figures. Prototypes and limited runs might jack it up by x1000.
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