Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

It seems entirely contrary to Judgment's nature to make that kind of middle ground though. It'd be like if Belial had a department devoted to actually functional, non-destructive, non-fire-starting central heating as part of him being literal Fire. Dominic sees in black and white remember - a thing is right or it is wrong; an act is good, or it is evil; a demon is redeemable, or it is not. A totally unrepentant recently jumped Balseraph is pretty firmly "not", and only its own actual desire to actually Redeem for all the right reasons right there and then could possibly be strong enough evidence to make Dominic reconsider.

As for Superior summonings, if it's so very important for your precious storyline that Judges perform an invocation, just say that another Archangel is involved and will count them as its Servitors for the purpose of answering a summons. Similar to how Eliites can invoke both their nominal and their actual boss without penalty.

How black and white and unwavering Dominic is is in part a function of how you have the contrast set up in your game. A Dominic that is too black and white, too inflexible is in practice not going to be much better than a demon.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by alexondria

How black and white and unwavering Dominic is is in part a function of how you have the contrast set up in your game. A Dominic that is too black and white, too inflexible is in practice not going to be much better than a demon.

Dominic's Word isn't "compromise" or "wait and see" - it's "Judgment".

He judges. That isn't just what he does, it's what he is.

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Dominic's Word isn't "compromise" or "wait and see" - it's "Judgment".

He judges. That isn't just what he does, it's what he is.

It is, but that doesn't mean that everything is black and white. Making a good judgement in the real world often involves understanding the shades of grey that are there. I don't see why it would be different in the game world. Take the classic example of theft. Someone has stolen a trinket because it was pretty and they wanted it. There was no need just desire. Someone else has stolen a loaf of bread because their family is starving and they can't watch them get sick and die from lack of food. If both are caught should the punishments be identical? The way you have Dominic answer that question will say a lot about your Dominic and your contrast levels. To put his plot into that kind of form what you would have is something like. The demon was a good angel that made some very poor decisions that led to their jumping. They aren't ready to redeem at this time.
a) With reeducation they will at some point in time be ready to redeem, as such we will hold them where they can do no harm until that time is reached or we determine it will not be possible.
b) We can do better by disbanding their forces and recycling them into new angels.
I would see both of those as judgement. They are different levels of punishment sure, but they are both the result of judging her guilty.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by alexondria

It is, but that doesn't mean that everything is black and white. Making a good judgement in the real world often involves understanding the shades of grey that are there. I don't see why it would be different in the game world. Take the classic example of theft. Someone has stolen a trinket because it was pretty and they wanted it. There was no need just desire. Someone else has stolen a loaf of bread because their family is starving and they can't watch them get sick and die from lack of food. If both are caught should the punishments be identical? The way you have Dominic answer that question will say a lot about your Dominic and your contrast levels. To put his plot into that kind of form what you would have is something like. The demon was a good angel that made some very poor decisions that led to their jumping. They aren't ready to redeem at this time.
a) With reeducation they will at some point in time be ready to redeem, as such we will hold them where they can do no harm until that time is reached or we determine it will not be possible.
b) We can do better by disbanding their forces and recycling them into new angels.
I would see both of those as judgement. They are different levels of punishment sure, but they are both the result of judging her guilty.

In the case given in this thread, the recently-turned Balseraph hasn't actually had a whole lot of time in Hell to twist her perceptions and make her not ready for redemption. Even if she's not going to be ready to be trusted with corporeal duties any time soon, it's a lot easier to imprison a wayward angel in Heaven than to imprison their Vessel on Earth, and the former requires Redeeming. Either she sincerely wants to return home, or she does not, and that'll come out during an interrogation session with Dominic's resonance running no matter how she tries to weasel out of answering.

[alexondria]

though again it depends on your setting. As far as I could tell in canon demons can in fact be in Heaven without trouble (well a bunch of Malakites coming to smite them is trouble, but it's not the light of Heaven type trouble), it's just the concentrated light in tethers that gives them trouble. If that's not how it works in your game it would be easy to say have Novalis set up a camp in the Marshes for keeping demonic prisoners that with enough retraining might be redeemable. Perhaps if this is the set up on rare occasion Dominic could send her a candidate. As for his resonance, what if it comes back with something like, "they do want to come home, but they have doubts about being accepted back. They believe that they have burned all their bridges and that can't be mended. Until this is fixed they will likely die in any attempt at redemption."

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by alexondria

though again it depends on your setting. As far as I could tell in canon demons can in fact be in Heaven without trouble (well a bunch of Malakites coming to smite them is trouble, but it's not the light of Heaven type trouble), it's just the concentrated light in tethers that gives them trouble. ...

Heaven and Hell, page 60:
"[N]ormally a demon entering the perfect harmony of Heaven creates a note of Discord in the Symphony so great that every celestial in Heaven can sense it. This “alarm klaxon” brings the Armies of God down on the intruder. Demons in Heaven must also make a Will roll every hour or else be ejected from Heaven and cast back into Hell. This is because demons have rejected Heaven. They are in essence trying to overcome their own desire to flee from God, and overcoming desire is not exactly common in Hell. An ejected demon materializes in Hell near his Heart, and will probably have to explain his actions to Lucifer himself, who will not be pleased at this violation of his rules."

So, yes, demons can get to Heaven, but their arrival is announced to everyone, they have to fight their own nature to stay, and they're annoying their boss' boss just by going. And they have the perfect escape from being held in Heaven against their will - fail a Will roll on purpose, and they're back in Hell.

[Cally]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Heaven and Hell, page 60...

Huh! I always assumed demons literally burned up in the actual locus of the divine Tether if they went celestial. I guess the core rules don't explicitly say that. Though with these rules it sounds like demons going into Heaven is a hypothetical at best if it causes every celestial in Heaven to know about it.

It's true that Dominic is... Judgmental, and he's probably one of the Archangels who tolerates his angels disobeying him the least, but Judgment also has to be fair. One of the sample oaths for Judgment Malakim in Superiors1 for example is: "Give a demon a chance to seek redemption before slaying it." How is this interpreted? You could interpret that as a Malakite just has to ask "Dost thou wish redemption?" to the demon he has at gun-point, and when the (scared) demon says: "No," then he pulls the trigger, but that's a bit cynical, isn't it? Unless the demon is Fallen, he has no idea what Heaven is like. He might not even know what redemption is. In that case, what then? Capture/kidnap the demon, relocate them to a tether (or another place they could be confined), then give them an honest lecture on Heaven? That's not expedient, and it might be an outright waste of time, and it could even backfire if, say, the demon uses the opportunity to summon his Demon Prince or something... But, it is fair.

More to the point, if the only possible conclusion for the Jumped Seraph is 'immediate soul killing,' then the PCs have nothing left to do. They've functioned more as investigators and police officers without acting as true Judges. The endgame, if it got to this point, would be on allowing them the chance to do that.

Also regarding the 'summoning Dominic' thing, as I mentioned earlier in my discussion of the adventure, if the PCs decided to break into the place the Jumped Seraph is being held with a full out attack, then Dominic could be persuaded to give the PCs a summoning feather. It's a dangerous situation of direct combat against demons, and they could very well summon their Demon Prince, which in that case the only hope for the PCs would be to summon Dominic. (Though if the team is not exclusively Dominicans he might not offer it at all.)

However if the PCs get through the trap being sprung without summoning Dominic and keeping the feather, they can use it in the final confrontation against the Jumped Seraph and Dominic will immediately arrest her with his Superior-level Warder power, denying her an attempt to summon Kronos, use an attunement/song, go celestial, or outright kill herself. It doesn't definitely have to happen, but it's a possibility.

As for the whole "a feather from Dominic's wings can be used to invoke him," thing, I admit it's not something that's in Superiors1, but I have seen it in more than a few games, so it seems to have passed into the collective consciousness somehow. It has some basis as the idea obviously draws inspiration from the "Scale" relic detailed in Superiors1.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by robkelk

Heaven and Hell, page 60:
"[N]ormally a demon entering the perfect harmony of Heaven creates a note of Discord in the Symphony so great that every celestial in Heaven can sense it. This “alarm klaxon” brings the Armies of God down on the intruder. Demons in Heaven must also make a Will roll every hour or else be ejected from Heaven and cast back into Hell. This is because demons have rejected Heaven. They are in essence trying to overcome their own desire to flee from God, and overcoming desire is not exactly common in Hell. An ejected demon materializes in Hell near his Heart, and will probably have to explain his actions to Lucifer himself, who will not be pleased at this violation of his rules."

So, yes, demons can get to Heaven, but their arrival is announced to everyone, they have to fight their own nature to stay, and they're annoying their boss' boss just by going. And they have the perfect escape from being held in Heaven against their will - fail a Will roll on purpose, and they're back in Hell.

That passage has been errata'd. In particular, demons do not need constant Will rolls to remain Upstairs - not in the same way, anyway.

Revelations III Heaven & Hell Errata:
Pp. 60-61. Replace the Demons in Heaven section with these paragraphs:

It is not actually true - as much as the angels would like to believe - that it is impossible for demons to enter Heaven. It is only very, very painful for them to do so. If a demon attempts to ascend to Heaven by following an angel, the demon will succeed with a successful Will roll followed by a Perception roll as normal (In Nomine, p. 53). However, the Light of Heaven damages a celestial demon, though not so quickly as the focused Light within a Divine Tether (see the Liber Castellorum). Upon arriving, and every 10 minutes thereafter, the demon must make a Will roll to defend his personal symphony from the overwhelming True Symphony. If he succeeds, he takes Soul hits equal to his total Forces, minus the successful roll's check digit. If he fails, he takes Soul hits equal to his total Forces, plus the failed roll's check digit.

Furthermore, because demons are unnatural in Heaven, they create a disturbance equal to their Forces upon entering - and since angels do not normally cause disturbance when returning to their Hearts, such loud disturbances do not go unnoticed, save perhaps in abandoned Cathedrals. Any damage a demon does to an angel, a blessed soul or one of the constructs of Heaven (such as furniture, clothing, etc.) will also create disturbance, just as if the demon were on the corporeal plane. (The GM rules what "distance" means on the celestial plane.)


So yes, a demon forced to remain in Heaven will either be ash within a matter of hours or else cost more Essence (in uses of Cel Healing) to imprison than to Redeem.

Originally Posted by Cally

Huh! I always assumed demons literally burned up in the actual locus of the divine Tether if they went celestial. I guess the core rules don't explicitly say that.

They indeed do not, and Liber Castellorum elaborates that you "only" take multiple d6 of undodgeable unsoakable soul hits every single round that you spend in celestial form inside the Tether proper while being a demon or demonling.

Originally Posted by Cally

It's true that Dominic is... Judgmental, and he's probably one of the Archangels who tolerates his angels disobeying him the least, but Judgment also has to be fair. One of the sample oaths for Judgment Malakim in Superiors1 for example is: "Give a demon a chance to seek redemption before slaying it." How is this interpreted? You could interpret that as a Malakite just has to ask "Dost thou wish redemption?" to the demon he has at gun-point, and when the (scared) demon says: "No," then he pulls the trigger, but that's a bit cynical, isn't it? Unless the demon is Fallen, he has no idea what Heaven is like. He might not even know what redemption is. In that case, what then? Capture/kidnap the demon, relocate them to a tether (or another place they could be confined), then give them an honest lecture on Heaven? That's not expedient, and it might be an outright waste of time, and it could even backfire if, say, the demon uses the opportunity to summon his Demon Prince or something... But, it is fair.

As a Malakite with that oath, I'd probably aim at the latter unless literally in the middle of a black ops run deep in enemy territory with no support. As the commander of a Malakite with that oath, I wouldn't send him/her/it on a black ops run deep in enemy territory with no support.

Originally Posted by Cally

More to the point, if the only possible conclusion for the Jumped Seraph is 'immediate soul killing,' then the PCs have nothing left to do. They've functioned more as investigators and police officers without acting as true Judges. The endgame, if it got to this point, would be on allowing them the chance to do that.

I never said there was no conclusion other than "immediate soul killing", only that there is no possible result that does not include either Redemption or immediate soul killing. She could be Redeemed and then chained to a desk for a thousand years, or Redeemed and put through therapy, or Redeemed and sent downstairs to guard a Tether for the next "until it's no longer a Tether", but if she serves any sentence other than soul-death she will have to serve it as a Seraph not a Balseraph.

[Cally]

I've been holding back my complete plans for the end of this adventure in case I ever did run this online and a potential player saw it, because this really would spoil the game as it's what I have in mind as the ultimate solution to the dilemma, but I will post it for review now.






LAST CHANCE TO AVOID SPOILERS








The evidence of the Jumped Seraph's trial will consist of several parts:

1. The results of Dominic's Superior-level multiple angelic resonances. (The Seraph resonance is useless, the Jumped Seraph won't speak at all. Mercurian results show she still considers herself better than others and regards her relationship with Kronos as most important. Malakim resonance shows she's very far on the 'low' side of her potential.)
2. The result of Mihr's Elohite resonance to try to find actions that will get the Jumped Seraph to repent, or at least feel guilt. (Talking about her friends will bring guilty feelings, but that won't translate to wanting to accept an attempt to redeem.)
3. The testimony of the PCs about their interactions with the Jumped Seraph throughout the mission and what they personally think would be the Just action to take with her.
4. Any character witnesses who want to speak on the Jumped Seraph's behalf. (Her friends, if the PCs have talked to them, might come or submit a statement.)
5. Seraphiel will present (True!) statistics on the accounts of angels who have deliberately Jumped in the past, angels who had Fallen and later attempted Redemption, and Redeemed Balseraphs of Fate. None of these statistics will look promising for the Jumped Seraph:
a. There will be records of angels deliberately Jumping, but they number in approximately one angel for every decade at most (sometimes as little as one for every century), and there is no record of a Seraph ever Jumping from Judgment before now.
b. Of the angels who have Jumped, there have been no Redemptions. Soul killings in direct combat with Heaven, but no Redemptions.
c. There are promising reports of angels who Fell and then attempted Redemption within a few days of that, but all cases of this have been Fallen angels who never bound themselves to serve a Demon Prince. (Something which the Jumped Seraph definitely has done.)
d. All cases of successfully Redeemed Balseraphs of Fate have been Hellborn Balseraphs, usually those exposed to the Seraph, Cherub, or Mercurian resonance. All cases of Fallen Balseraphs of Fate attempting Redemption (number of attempts is in single digits) have burned up in the attempt.

Seraphiel's argument will be this paints a bleak picture and holding the Jumped Seraph against her will with her Heart whole in the mere hope she will 'someday' Redeem is folly and a needless delay of Judgment. Soul-death is a Just punishment for a Fallen angel who: deliberately betrayed Heaven, attempted to capture the investigating Triad to push them to their Fates, and then willfully conspired to attack the Judgment tether she herself had worked with as an angel.

What can the PCs do about it?:
If there's a Bright Lilim in the party, or if one of the PCs genuinely considers it, they'll notice Dominic only has a list of the angelic resonances. They don't have one for the Lilim resonance. Either the Bright Lilim of the party will be allowed to go to Earth to resonate her (with a full essence-holder relic so she's guaranteed CD: 6 results), or one from Trade will be loaned. (This will be a big deal, and she'll have at least two Cherubs, one Judgment, one Trade, attuned.)

Either way, Jumped Seraph has the CD: 6 "Need to be corrected for her horrible sins."

In this case, Mihr's suggestion of "hold her until she attempts Redemption" will win. The PCs can then go and say whatever they want to her, bring her friends to meet her, etc. If she knows the results of the trial and her friends are there, she'll eventually break down and agree to attempt Redemption.

In order to survive, the Jumped Seraph needs to have acknowledged she actively betrayed Heaven. If she's merely emotionally manipulated into attempting by guilt, she'll burn up. If she survives, she'll be stripped of her Corporeal forces and assigned to small duties in the Spires for the rest of her existence, possibly never leaving her office, even if she's not technically forbidden from doing so. She'll be a pariah, visited only by Dominic, the PCs (if they're inclined), and her friends. She'll consider this her Just punishment. (Though if the PCs want to go super-forgiveness on her, they can try to petition Yves or possibly Novalis to negotiate with Dominic for a transfer of service.)

Whether or not she burns or succeeds in the Redemption, Dominic will consider this the best possible outcome of the investigation and reward the PCs appropriately.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Cally

I've been holding back my complete plans for the end of this adventure in case I ever did run this online and a potential player saw it, because this really would spoil the game as it's what I have in mind as the ultimate solution to the dilemma, but I will post it for review now.






LAST CHANCE TO AVOID SPOILERS








The evidence of the Jumped Seraph's trial will consist of several parts:

1. The results of Dominic's Superior-level multiple angelic resonances. (The Seraph resonance is useless, the Jumped Seraph won't speak at all. Mercurian results show she still considers herself better than others and regards her relationship with Kronos as most important. Malakim resonance shows she's very far on the 'low' side of her potential.)
...

What does the Malakim resonance show on a CD 6? This is one of the very few ways to reliably tell the difference between a Seraph and a Balseraph.