Judgment Adventure seed idea feedback requested.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Cally

Looking over the rules for Outcasting, it's hard to imagine an angel ever falling unless they deliberately chose to do so.

That's the idea, yes. Fundamentally, Falling is supposed to be a conscious choice. The usual progression is that an angel starts to rationalize his or her actions -- "Yes, I know I'm not supposed to do this, but .... " Over time, it becomes "Why shouldn't I do this?"

By the time you take that last step, it's likely you no longer want to be an angel anymore, or care.

[Cally]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

That's the idea, yes. Fundamentally, Falling is supposed to be a conscious choice. The usual progression is that an angel starts to rationalize his or her actions -- "Yes, I know I'm not supposed to do this, but .... " Over time, it becomes "Why shouldn't I do this?"

By the time you take that last step, it's likely you no longer want to be an angel anymore, or care.

I agree this should be the case for 90-95% of all Falls... but the dramatic potential for an angel to be 'pushed' or otherwise emotionally manipulated into a fall is worth a little bit of wiggle room in the mechanics, isn't it? Also for the unknown mystery option here of "Pushed, Fell, or Jumped?"

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Cally

Of course this can also depend on the GM's interpretation of 'how many celestials are on Earth at any given time.' If there's so few that one angel and his reliever constitute the entirety of an Archangel's presence in a large area, then sure, that would be a little less plausible.

Well, admittedly they were "just" the entirety of the David presence in Rome itself. It depends on your definition of "large area" - only, it doesn't really, because any meaningful definition of "large" would logically include "so far away that we cannot recall them at short notice". The general assumption of In Nom is that "on standby" is not a thing that happens - if you aren't in rest & recuperation, you're actively serving your Word in a manner that almost certainly cannot be trivially interrupted to trap a few angels.

Also, I don't believe Bal-Malakim actually get the "no Trauma" feature of Malakim, as it's not inherent to the resonance, similar to how Bal-Kyriotates never stun people in their celestial form. I'm prepared to be proved wrong on this though.

Originally Posted by Cally

The more I think about it, the more I think it's easier to just house rule that an angel's Heart shatters when they go Outcast. Unless there's some event in the timeline that hinged on a Heart only going dark.

No, the easiest way is to have your evil Seraph deliberately get Outcast in the usual manner and outright Jump only when the party reach the holding facility. I already spelled that out.

EDIT: Seriously, it is. If Hearts shatter when an angel is merely Outcast, then the standard operating procedure is automatically to not pursue Outcasts, as the majority of shattered hearts will be casualties and traitors. So it doesn't in any way solve the issue of the player base naturally assuming that a shattered Heart means the person is dead or Fallen.

Originally Posted by Cally

In any case, the only way for an angel to fall would be if they did something which gave them a lot of dissonance at once, if they somehow got a form of permanent dissonance that couldn't be converted (like from the optional rules of perverting their resonance), or if they were genuinely selfish and didn't care about serving Heaven in any capacity anymore. If Hearts shatter with Outcasting, then at least the angel has to get themselves to a Tether and likely have a Long Talk with their Superior before getting back to Heaven.

You already cannot use your damaged Heart if you have been Outcast, either by your own actions or by your Superior's cruelty. Your worries on this particular front are unfounded.

You're also assuming that Heaven is forgiving about that sort of thing - it is well within acceptable Grey levels for a badly discordant or disobedient Outcast to simply be disassembled into their component Forces and used to upgrade more obedient Servitors. Also, according to the Edelstein write-up, Uriel would outright soul-kill any Servitor found to have two notes of dissonance or a single level of Discord no matter how good their excuse and no matter how well they had otherwise served him - obviously Uriel is the parodic extreme but that attitude is reflective of how much Heaven Does Not Like Discord.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Cally

if they somehow got a form of permanent dissonance that couldn't be converted

Emphasis mine. For every Choir (and every Band) there is a Discord which adds to their dissonance rolls, effectively counting as permanent dissonance for the purpose of determining if they Fall or not. So, once a Seraph becomes Paranoid/3 they're almost certainly Hellbound, similarly once a Mercurian becomes Berserk/3, an Elohite* Angry/3, or an Ofanite develops a Vulnerability/3.

So, accumulating endless Discord to avoid a Fall literally won't work.

* Elohim are admittedly up the creek once they develop any "strong emotional reactions" Discord, but Angry is the one that actually adds to their dissonance rolls.

EDIT EDIT:

Originally Posted by Cally

I agree this should be the case for 90-95% of all Falls... but the dramatic potential for an angel to be 'pushed' or otherwise emotionally manipulated into a fall is worth a little bit of wiggle room in the mechanics, isn't it? Also for the unknown mystery option here of "Pushed, Fell, or Jumped?"

If you're emotionally manipulated into committing dissonant acts until you Fall, you still Fall. No wiggle room required whatsoever.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

If you're emotionally manipulated into committing dissonant acts until you Fall, you still Fall. No wiggle room required whatsoever.

Yes. If you'll forgive my bringing mortals into it, this is basically the "choice of Eve." You're emotionally manipulated, lied to, confused, put on very treacherous ground ... and it's still your own action that completes the circuit, however little choice you believe you had in the matter.

Every confidence man says "They had a choice." And it's technically true. The con's art is in making the choice seem inevitable, even desirable, until after it's too late to turn back.

[Cally]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Also, I don't believe Bal-Malakim actually get the "no Trauma" feature of Malakim, as it's not inherent to the resonance, similar to how Bal-Kyriotates never stun people in their celestial form. I'm prepared to be proved wrong on this though.

This is a good point, I think it could be open to interpretation. My argument for a Malakite-Bal not experiencing Trauma is:

A Bal-kyriotate doesn't stun anyone because the stun-reaction is in response to its celestial appearance. Shedim provoke the same stun-reaction. A Bal-kyriotate is still a Bal.

The core rules make it sound like the 'no trauma' thing for Malakim is tied to their oath for "Never be captured by the forces of hell." It describes it as "death is preferable, and Malakim have gone through Trauma so much it doesn't affect them." Which... well I think everyone sort of disregards. It implies a fresh-born/fledged Malakite would experience trauma until he got 'used to it'. But the implication that the "no trauma" thing is part of their very being (and I'm almost positive I've seen it mentioned that Malakite-Bals must swear oaths) is there.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

No, the easiest way is to have your evil Seraph deliberately get Outcast in the usual manner and outright Jump only when the party reach the holding facility. I already spelled that out.

Well, it would be... if it wasn't that the last part of the game that I have in mind would be that after the angels capture the Jumped Seraph, Dominic holds a trial for her. Her guilt will be obvious at this point, so the main contest will be what her punishment should be. Specifically 'soul death' or 'hold her imprisoned until ready to attempt redemption'. (The PCs will be able to argue whichever they like. Most games I've experienced there's a tend towards 'peaceful' solutions so I expect them to try to argue for the latter.) If she slowly betrays Heaven and then later Jumps then this becomes more clear cut that Soul Death is more appropriate. I want to craft a real dilemma where either side looks reasonable.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

EDIT: Seriously, it is. If Hearts shatter when an angel is merely Outcast, then the standard operating procedure is automatically to not pursue Outcasts, as the majority of shattered hearts will be casualties and traitors. So it doesn't in any way solve the issue of the player base naturally assuming that a shattered Heart means the person is dead or Fallen.

It's specifically stated in Sups1 that when a Judgment angel's Heart shatters, Dominic NEVER assumes either Fallen or Soul Death until it's verified. Until then it's always under investigation.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

You already cannot use your damaged Heart if you have been Outcast, either by your own actions or by your Superior's cruelty. Your worries on this particular front are unfounded.

From page 30 of the core rules: "Once an Outcast rids himself of all dissonance, he regains the ability to ascend to Heaven. [As well as summon their Archangel.]" I think the situation might be different if the Archangel himself Outcasts an angel, but it's stated not even an Archangel can destroy a servitor's Heart for them.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

You're also assuming that Heaven is forgiving about that sort of thing - it is well within acceptable Grey levels for a badly discordant or disobedient Outcast to simply be disassembled into their component Forces and used to upgrade more obedient Servitors. Also, according to the Edelstein write-up, Uriel would outright soul-kill any Servitor found to have two notes of dissonance or a single level of Discord no matter how good their excuse and no matter how well they had otherwise served him - obviously Uriel is the parodic extreme but that attitude is reflective of how much Heaven Does Not Like Discord.

This is one of those things that makes perfect sense in the abstract, but actual use in a game might upset your players. That is, it's easy to say when talking about the system that "angels with too much discord just get killed," but if you introduce an NPC who has discord but is otherwise repentant/willing to serve and then their Archangel destroys them anyway, the PCs are likely going to react with horror. IN Heaven might not promote supreme rights of the individual, but that's how we humans see it and so that's likely how they'll roleplay their PC seeing it. (Unless they're playing very cold/pragmatic/ruthless angels anyway.)

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

...So, accumulating endless Discord to avoid a Fall literally won't work.

That's something that hadn't occurred to me. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Cally

This is a good point, I think it could be open to interpretation. My argument for a Malakite-Bal not experiencing Trauma is:

A Bal-kyriotate doesn't stun anyone because the stun-reaction is in response to its celestial appearance. Shedim provoke the same stun-reaction. A Bal-kyriotate is still a Bal.

The core rules make it sound like the 'no trauma' thing for Malakim is tied to their oath for "Never be captured by the forces of hell." It describes it as "death is preferable, and Malakim have gone through Trauma so much it doesn't affect them." Which... well I think everyone sort of disregards. It implies a fresh-born/fledged Malakite would experience trauma until he got 'used to it'. But the implication that the "no trauma" thing is part of their very being (and I'm almost positive I've seen it mentioned that Malakite-Bals must swear oaths) is there.

Infernal Player's Guide does specify Bal-Malakim must swear oaths. It does not specify they must swear the same oaths that real Malakim would swear, indeed it specifically notes that they are absolutely not required to swear "I shall never allow an evil to live if it is my choice".

Originally Posted by Cally

Well, it would be... if it wasn't that the last part of the game that I have in mind would be that after the angels capture the Jumped Seraph, Dominic holds a trial for her. Her guilt will be obvious at this point, so the main contest will be what her punishment should be. Specifically 'soul death' or 'hold her imprisoned until ready to attempt redemption'. (The PCs will be able to argue whichever they like. Most games I've experienced there's a tend towards 'peaceful' solutions so I expect them to try to argue for the latter.) If she slowly betrays Heaven and then later Jumps then this becomes more clear cut that Soul Death is more appropriate. I want to craft a real dilemma where either side looks reasonable.

If the sentence has already been narrowed down to "Soul-kill" or "Redeem", and she doesn't right there and then at that moment want to Redeem, and want to Redeem for real, and not just want to Redeem to escape Asmodeus' clutches, then she's for the chop and no arguments of guilt or innocence will save her. So, no ambiguity needed.

Originally Posted by Cally

It's specifically stated in Sups1 that when a Judgment angel's Heart shatters, Dominic NEVER assumes either Fallen or Soul Death until it's verified. Until then it's always under investigation.

I checked, you're absolutely right on the specific point - but it does remove the need for any ambiguity about whether she might have been Outcast. Heart-shattering may narrow it down to "either Soul-death or Falling" but clearly Dominic wants to know which one, so the party has a reason to go down and find out.

Originally Posted by Cally

From page 30 of the core rules: "Once an Outcast rids himself of all dissonance, he regains the ability to ascend to Heaven. [As well as summon their Archangel.]" I think the situation might be different if the Archangel himself Outcasts an angel, but it's stated not even an Archangel can destroy a servitor's Heart for them.

That's very strange and makes Outcasting a totally meaningless punishment on the face of it, especially as an Outcast can "rid himself of all dissonance" by turning it into Discord. I'd say that houseruling that away is a much, much, much smaller imposition than making it shatter your Heart outright.

EDIT: It's also contradicted by Heaven and Hell, implicitly by the mention on page 50 that Outcasts and Renegades cannot ascend to their Heart, and rather more implicitly by the fact Outcasts go to Limbo, not their Heart, when corporeally killed, dissonance or no dissonance.

To be fair, my group forgot about the thing where you can ascend to your Heart and later decided that it was actually a bad idea due to removing 90% of the risk from combat. So, this would be the area for my memory to have a blind spot.

Originally Posted by Cally

This is one of those things that makes perfect sense in the abstract, but actual use in a game might upset your players. That is, it's easy to say when talking about the system that "angels with too much discord just get killed," but if you introduce an NPC who has discord but is otherwise repentant/willing to serve and then their Archangel destroys them anyway, the PCs are likely going to react with horror. IN Heaven might not promote supreme rights of the individual, but that's how we humans see it and so that's likely how they'll roleplay their PC seeing it. (Unless they're playing very cold/pragmatic/ruthless angels anyway.)

And what, exactly, is wrong with the idea of PC angels being horrified by the deeds of their Superior? Transfers to other Archangels are a thing that happens. So is deserting, or even Jumping. Such an event could be the trigger for leaving the relevant Archangel's service in one of these ways.

[Cally]

Think this thread's almost off-topic, so here's the main phases of the seed again for crit:

Act I: Mission Briefing: Interviewing Jumped Seraph's friends; Investigating Jumped Seraph's last known whereabouts and her role. Finished when the PCs get something to use with Celestial Affinity.
Act II: Discover the Seraph is being held in a fixed location, PCs either sneak in or blast their way in. They discover the Jumped Seraph is a traitor and the trap is sprung. (The adventure could end here if the PCs called in War's angels, summon Dominic too early, or kill the Jumped Seraph and the other lackeys. ...Or if they Jump too.) Potential side quest: kidnap/interrogate/bargain with a Theft servitor to identify Game demons who are using Humanity.
Act III: Escape capture by Fate. Time ticks down as the Jumped Seraph goes to encourage a human to embrace his Fate and shoot up the Judgment tether. The PCs will be given chances to escape and then must contact (or defend) the tether. (Adventure could end here potentially if they just don't try.)
Act IV: Capture the Jumped Seraph before she gets away to the Game tether. (Adventure could end here if they outright kill her. Summoning Dominic here will probably get the best result.)
Act V: The Trial of the Jumped Seraph. There will be a window for interrogation, gathering evidence, and the PCs will get to be witnesses. Seraphiel is the 'prosecutor' and he'll suggest 'Soul Death'. Mihr is the 'Defense' and suggests 'hold her until she's ready to redeem'. The PCs can argue for either side, or for a new punishment entirely. After the trial, they have time to collect evidence that could convince Dominic to change his mind if he went with 'soul killing', which is what he'll decide unless there is compelling evidence for the contrary and/or all of the PCs side with Mihr.

Result: Either the Jumped Seraph is soul killed, she attempts redemption and burns up, she genuinely redeems, or she is held prisoner.

Either way, there's a hook for either Seraphiel or Mihr to consider the PCs for a next mission.

[Omegonthesane]

I don't see how pointing out and arguing details that directly pertain to the scenario set-up is in any way off-topic.

Act V simply wouldn't happen - there is no "Hold a demon prisoner until they are ready to Redeem" punishment on Dominic's books. There might be an Epilogue in which she is tried and sentenced to death, but if she consciously wants to redeem for the right reasons they'll give her a shot regardless, and if she doesn't they'll kill her regardless.

Also, you can't summon Dominic. I don't mean that as an emotional appeal, I mean that he has a Chance of Invocation of "None" and explicitly can never be summoned. You might want to reconsider the power levels involved with that in mind.

The rest of it sounds reasonable enough.

[alexondria]

well, I'd say if it's his game and he wants Dominic to have a hold prisoner until ready to redeem punishment for certain special cases he can. As for the summoning thing when I've needed to hand wave that for a SL purpose I've given the PCs something to "call" him with the ic warning that they better not use it trivially.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by alexondria

well, I'd say if it's his game and he wants Dominic to have a hold prisoner until ready to redeem punishment for certain special cases he can. As for the summoning thing when I've needed to hand wave that for a SL purpose I've given the PCs something to "call" him with the ic warning that they better not use it trivially.

It seems entirely contrary to Judgment's nature to make that kind of middle ground though. It'd be like if Belial had a department devoted to actually functional, non-destructive, non-fire-starting central heating as part of him being literal Fire. Dominic sees in black and white remember - a thing is right or it is wrong; an act is good, or it is evil; a demon is redeemable, or it is not. A totally unrepentant recently jumped Balseraph is pretty firmly "not", and only its own actual desire to actually Redeem for all the right reasons right there and then could possibly be strong enough evidence to make Dominic reconsider.

As for Superior summonings, if it's crucial that Judges perform an invocation, just say that another Archangel is involved and will count them as its Servitors for the purpose of answering a summons. Similar to how Eliites can invoke both their nominal and their actual boss without penalty.