Giant Apprentice

[hcobb]

In Legacy it takes a starting Giant wizard 24,500 XP to learn the Aid spell. (At 60 XP per session this is over 400 sessions...)

How have you handled Giant wizards in your games?

Elga, Half-giant wizard, age 20
ST 16, DX 10, IQ 9, MA 10
Talent: Literacy
Spells: Aid, Detect Magic, Fire, Image, Light, Magic Fist, Staff, Summon Wolf
Language: Common
Weapon: Staff spruce maul (1d+4, 1d occult)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d)
Special Ability/Weakness: 2-hex figure

[Bill_in_IN]

The Giant Wizard accompanies a High IQ Goblin Wizard and there is a Two Weapons Sword Expert Goblin that is also in that party.

Giant Wizard
Name: Duste Bozorg (Persian for Big Friend)
ST 23; DX 9; IQ 9; MA 10
Staff 1, Literacy, Aid, Turn Missiles, Light, Magic Fist, Blur, Avert, Summon Scout, Giant/Common Languages
2-Handed Staff Damage (1d+6)
Leather Armor

Goblin Wizard
Name: Paal (from Goblin name generator)
ST 6; DX 11(10); IQ 18; MA 10
Staff 5, Literacy, Wizard's Wrath, Missile Weapons (x3), Lessr Magic Iten Creation, 7-Hex Illusion, 7-Hex Fire, Teleport, Mage Sight, Goblin/Common Languages.
Staff 5 Zap (1d+2), Cloth Armor.

Goblin Swordman
Name: Arokz
ST 11; DX 12 (11); IQ 11; MA 10
Sword & Sword Expertise, Two Weapons, Bow, Physicker
2 Short Swords, Cloth Armor

The Giant and Goblin Wizard combo is not very efficient but it works. If you think that it takes time for a regular wizard to recoupe fatigue, wait till you have a Giant wizard. Otherwise, these two wizards accompanied by the sword expert are a formidable squad to battle. The two wizards were very inefficient for Death Test 2 but, should work reasonably well for more open adventures. The other aspect of inefficiency is the low DX of the Giant.

The Giant is good at whacking anyone that closes in on him and his wizard friend with his staff that is twice as big as a normal one. No snickers out there about that statement. In fact, it can hit from 2 hexes away.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by hcobb

In Legacy it takes a starting Giant wizard 24,500 XP to learn the Aid spell. (At 60 XP per session this is over 400 sessions...)

How have you handled Giant wizards in your games?

In my games, Giants are strictly NPCs.

I don't see how in Legacy a Giant can go from the starting stats of 25/9/7 to the standard-giant stats of 30/9/8 (6 attribute increase when starting from 41), much less to the maximum of 40/10/10. You were pointing out a mere 2 point increase to the attributes as being too much.

If I were to allow giants I would have a different XP track for them as this only makes sense. I would also assume both DX and IQ would cost giants more XP to increase than ST.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

If I were to allow giants I would have a different XP track for them as this only makes sense. I would also assume both DX and IQ would cost giants more XP to increase than ST.

It's an interesting problem. I've been designing a five (yes five) attribute system in which all the PC races, including Giants, start with 50 points, and as they all start with the same total they can all share the same XP progression table. My Giants start with IQ 7, so it would only take them 200 XP to raise their IQ high enough to learn Aid (provided IQ increases were what they bought first, before the attribute price started going up). They'd still have a pitifully low DX though, and need to work on that too.

But changing that many of the rules to fix such a small problem might rightfully be criticized as a Giant over-kill.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

In my games, Giants are strictly NPCs.

I don't see how in Legacy a Giant can go from the starting stats of 25/9/7 to the standard-giant stats of 30/9/8 (6 attribute increase when starting from 41), much less to the maximum of 40/10/10. You were pointing out a mere 2 point increase to the attributes as being too much.

If I were to allow giants I would have a different XP track for them as this only makes sense. I would also assume both DX and IQ would cost giants more XP to increase than ST.

Most of the characters that I make and experiment with are destined to be NPCs in some way or another.

The separate track would be more like the Classic TFT rules for Giants where the XP to attribute table was doubled for them due to having twice the life span. This is no longer the case in Legacy TFT. Starting at 41 Attributes, their 42nd attribute cost 7,000 XP.

I changed the ridiculous Legacy system that doubles XP for every attribute after 38. I changed XP cost to increase by 300 for each attribute from that point on. Starting at 41 Attributes, their 42nd attribute cost 7,100 XP.

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

It's an interesting problem. I've been designing a five (yes five) attribute system in which all the PC races, including Giants, start with 50 points, and as they all start with the same total they can all share the same XP progression table. My Giants start with IQ 7, so it would only take them 200 XP to raise their IQ high enough to learn Aid (provided IQ increases were what they bought first, before the attribute price started going up). They'd still have a pitifully low DX though, and need to work on that too.

But changing that many of the rules to fix such a small problem might rightfully be criticized as a Giant over-kill.

The change that I made to the XP to attribute doesn't radically change Legacy TFT. It will allow for some characters to get above 40 attributes but not much unless a player only plays the same set of characters for years on a weekly basis but still not as ridiculously stifling as the 40 point wall manufactured in Legacy ITL.

When creating an actual Giant and not a half-Giant, I start with the ITL description of ST 25, DX 9, IQ 7 and allow for a couple of points to be taken from ST and placed on DX or IQ as desired. In the case of the Giant Wizard Duste Bozorg, I took two from ST and placed it onto IQ so that he could get some IQ 9 spells. Also, if one were creating a fighter Giant, one would most likely want to move 1 ST to IQ so that they could IQ 8 weapon skills.

The initial build is always important for any character but it is even moreso for a Giant because they will be there for a long time even with my change to the XP to Attribute cost.

In our Classic TFT days, Giants as PCs were more easily accommodated but still had some impracticality due to limits on DX and IQ. These were and are still not ignored. However, since our PC Giant traveled mostly among smarter races, he was given chances to at to IQ or DX when he had enough XP for another attribute. These were usually random rolls where the percentage of success became less as he went above 10 for DX or IQ. Actually having a PC Giant in our Classic TFT days trained us on how to accommodate them. They are never practical in any way but there are ways to include them as PCs.

I also employ the following rules from Classic ITL that really affect Giants as PCs.

ADVANTAGES OF GREAT STRENGTH

When a character's ST reaches nigh enough levels, amazing feats are possible.
Examples:
At ST 18, cloth or leather armor does not slow a figure at all, or affect DX. Chainmail only gives you DX -2 and MA 8. In plate or half-plate your MA remains 6, but your DX is reduced by one less than it would be for a weaker figure.
At ST 18 or above, you can pick up items of furniture, BIG rocks, etc., and throw them for (1+1) damage - more if you're stronger and the GM permits it.
At ST 20, you can carry a large shield without DX adjustment, or a tower shield at DX -1.
At ST 20, you can use your foot against doors, chests, etc., as though it were a blunt weapon (1 die damage to the thing you kick, none to you).
At ST 24, chainmail does not slow your movement or reduce your DX — nor does a tower shield. In heavier armor your MA is 8. Half-plate gives you DX -3; plate gives you -4.
At ST 26, half-plate does not affect your MA, and your DX is only -2.
At ST 28, your MA is not affected by ANY armor. Plate gives you DX -2; half plate gives you DX -1.
Two-handed weapons: A figure with a ST that is 10 or more above the minimum ST required for a 2-handed weapon may use it one-handed. (This does NOT apply to bows or crossbows - only to cutting/bashing weapons and guns.)

NOTE: a strength of more than 30 is highly improbable by
Earth standards. If a GM wants to run a "realistic" campaign,
he should consider limiting the maximum ST of human-type
figures to 30. Of course, in a pure fantasy world, super-heroes
capable of sustaining massive damage while performing incred-
ible feats of strength are common; if you want this type of
game, you should allow characters to build up to any ST they
can earn

Legacy decreased the max suggested ST to 20 and the ST to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand at 3 ST above minimum ST to wield it. I use Legacy on these two points.

I understand why some GMs would not allow PC Giants due to the overall impracticality. But, I was in a group that did find ways to accommodate them as PCs and I intend to allow them if the players are willing to live with the various impracticalities of having one as a PC. Low DX and lack of Attribute progression are the two key impracticalities outside of the character size. Our friend with the Giant character was very lucky with dice in any game that he played. I think that's why he liked having a Giant.

I do intend to experiment with Half-Giants too.

[hcobb]

You are not armoring up giants I hope. Leather Armor is 64 pounds, which is over 2.5 times ST 25.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

You are not armoring up giants I hope. Leather Armor is 64 pounds, which is over 2.5 times ST 25.

Per my post, I'm following the Advantages of Great Strength in Classic ITL.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Per my post, I'm following the Advantages of Great Strength in Classic ITL.

You don't need MA and DX reductions from the armor table when you're getting hammered by the load.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

might rightfully be criticized as a Giant over-kill.

lol I see what you did there

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

How have you handled Giant wizards in your games?

My solution is simple, though I expect it will be controversial... there's no such thing as a wizardly giant on my Cidri (for PCs anyway).

My reasoning was part flavor, part system driven. When I chose to remove the IQ-based tiers for talents and spells, it created an exploitable opportunity for giants, but since the history I created for them has a strictly non-magical origin (plus their overwhelming physical advantages) it was easy to justify adding a racial trait that removed the 'wizard' option at character creation.

That said, aberrations do exist in my campaign and I'm excited to introduce them to my players at some point.