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Old 09-27-2013, 04:16 AM   #11
Yako
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Well, -1 to Dodge owing to being grappled at all, and losing +3 for retreat and +2 for Acrobatic Dodge . . . that's fairly severe. But note that a pin is not a Quick Contest. It's a Regular Contest, which means that the victim has to fail while the teke succeeds. That could take a while!
I admit, I always read that wrong, or maybe I just subsumed it as being akin to the New World of Darkness Grappling Rules, which have a similar succession of grapple, take down, pin.
I shall not it for the future, but, it does not change the core issue...

Quote:
I'm just saying that grappling doesn't become special merely because you use TK to do it. Grappling is grappling, and TK simply lets you do it at a distance. If you want TK to produce severe penalties, such as for lying down, then you have to use it for takedown first (winning the Quick Contest to put someone in a prone posture), and then for a pin. Grabbing someone with it is completely identical to grabbing him with a pair of hands – the rules are very explicit on this point. Telekinesis is not meant to be better than that; its advantages are range and invisibility, not superior restraint.
But that is not the core issue, the question is rather, if someone can lift someone up, and do it easily (Which with a normal fighter carrying some equipment would require a ST, telkinetic or not of 21 to take two seconds instead of four and about 30 to do it in one), should that make the grappled party an easier target compared to just standing and being grappled?

Judging by fictional examples, lifting someone into the air (then often followed by colliding him into walls and similar) is usually portrayed as more or less having the subject helpless and in your power.
I do not think a pin-like result should occur without the usual rolls, but some kind of result should be obtained by spending the time to lift someone, aside from the fact that he can no be smashed repeatedly into the next wall.

And again, a character who is strong enough to do that with his bare hands should get similar results.

Quote:
Of course, TK lets you buy very high ST rather cheaply, so winning ST-based Contests becomes rather trivial if you really invest in TK. The key point is that it's no more effective than a person who goes hands-on with an equivalent level of ST.

A well-rounded psychokinetic character who wants instant restraint should be investing in Binding with the Psi power modifier and the Unbreakable enhancement.
So, the official word is that, indeed, lifting anyone up, be it by raw strength or psychokinetic powers is, for all rule purposes aside from the fact that he can easily be thrown, smashed or otherwise manipulated, identical to just being grappled normally, especially i terms of defences?
Especially when legwork, which, without groundcontact would be rather difficult, is clearly an important factor for dodge in particular, reflected in penalties for bad footing?

I admit, I would not go with that official ruling and the recommendation of binding is, frankly not very helpful as it is a clearly different idea to be able to lock one opponent after the other in telekinetic chains than to apply telekinesis to one opponent.

Do I basically need to tell my players "Sorry, if you want to do that, you have to press him down, not lift him up." even if the idea makes sense to everyone?
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:16 AM   #12
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

You can still leverage against the hands/force that are holding you up. You can swing and twist your body, and pull your limbs in or flail them about - all of this would enable you to perform some level of dodge.

If it were a person holding you up, you could kick off from their body, pull yourself up using their arms or otherwise yank/swing/wriggle to suddenly shift their centre of gravity and thus alter your relative position to everything else (even if you're still being held at a fixed arms-length distance from the grappler). Although its harder to push off against a TK force, as its just hands, nothing says it doesn't respond with some shift within the hex it resides when forces apply against it (even if those forces can only apply whilst they're gripping the thing applying those forces).

As such, I'd say its fair game to say that whilst elevated off of the floor, you're still capable of moving about enough to require some level of aim from those around you due to your ability to dodge out of the way. Even inanimate piñata on short strings require some degree of predictive/timed attacks to hit squarely/at all, I see no reason why an animated person couldn't produce at least that degree of shifting to avoid being hit.

Don't forget that pinning against the floor dramatically reduces the possible degrees of movement allowed, the person can't move through the floor, and pressure is being applied from above to prevent them moving away from the floor. Holding someone up only takes their feet off of the floor - and as anyone who's ever hung off a branch or been held by a wire will tell you, there are many degrees of motion and methods of gaining momentum available to you even if your feet aint touching the ground.
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Old 09-27-2013, 05:35 AM   #13
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

If you use one of your telekinesis hands (should that be telekinetic hands?) to grab a leg and one to grab an arm I don't see why you couldn't make the victim effectively prone (I could see the target still standing upright with the same penalties) whilst in mid air with a force posture change maneuver.
You would have to deal with the fact that there are two weaker grapples rather than one stronger one.
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Old 09-27-2013, 08:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

If you use technical grappling...

and have wrestling trained high enough to give a trained strength bonus (or other skill)

would that increase your trained telekinetic skill for the purpose of inflicting telekinetic CP (due to using wrestling principles with your invisible hands)

Or would that be dependant on an IQ based wrestling roll?

And every other question that can be asked in relation to telekinetic grappling?
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
It's treated exactly like an invisible person. It displaces air and makes noises. If you want it to be completely undetectable . . . well, there are enhancements for that.
Alright, that makes sense. It might not be in line with many fictional versions of telekinesis but it keeps it close to the default rules and allows modification to meet a variety of expectations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PseudoFenton View Post
You can still leverage against the hands/force that are holding you up. You can swing and twist your body, and pull your limbs in or flail them about - all of this would enable you to perform some level of dodge.

If it were a person holding you up, you could kick off from their body, pull yourself up using their arms or otherwise yank/swing/wriggle to suddenly shift their centre of gravity and thus alter your relative position to everything else (even if you're still being held at a fixed arms-length distance from the grappler). Although its harder to push off against a TK force, as its just hands, nothing says it doesn't respond with some shift within the hex it resides when forces apply against it (even if those forces can only apply whilst they're gripping the thing applying those forces).
Compare:

Two fighters are standing on loose gravel, giving a penalty to dodge. One of the fighters is grabbed by the other, now he has the penalty from the loose gravel and the penalties from being grappled applying to his dodge.

-to-

Moments later that fighter is lifted into the air...losing the penalty from the loose gravel... o_O

Quote:
Originally Posted by PseudoFenton View Post
As such, I'd say its fair game to say that whilst elevated off of the floor, you're still capable of moving about enough to require some level of aim from those around you due to your ability to dodge out of the way. Even inanimate piñata on short strings require some degree of predictive/timed attacks to hit squarely/at all, I see no reason why an animated person couldn't produce at least that degree of shifting to avoid being hit.
I think piñatas are a red herring here. For one thing they spin freely from a single point and are suspended from a point high above swinging wildly. Also, for all their movement, they don't really dodge attacks; people just don't get to use the rules for attacking stationary targets against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PseudoFenton View Post
Don't forget that pinning against the floor dramatically reduces the possible degrees of movement allowed, the person can't move through the floor, and pressure is being applied from above to prevent them moving away from the floor. Holding someone up only takes their feet off of the floor - and as anyone who's ever hung off a branch or been held by a wire will tell you, there are many degrees of motion and methods of gaining momentum available to you even if your feet aint touching the ground.
There is a big difference between lifting yourself up and being picked up.
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Old 09-27-2013, 09:36 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

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Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Judging by fictional examples, lifting someone into the air (then often followed by colliding him into walls and similar) is usually portrayed as more or less having the subject helpless and in your power.
I do not think a pin-like result should occur without the usual rolls, but some kind of result should be obtained by spending the time to lift someone, aside from the fact that he can no be smashed repeatedly into the next wall.
One potential "problem" with GURPS is that the names of the advantages do no always match up with the expectations of the players. TK is a perfect example of this. I would suggest you read GURPS Psionic Powers (Powers has the information in it, but Psionic Powers makes it easier to deal with psionics).

Usually a fictional ability such as TK requires TK + Binding + an IA or two. It may require more if you believe that TK includes pyro and cryokinesis.

It's best to read the descriptions of all the abilities in order to understand the limitiations.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:40 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

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Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
Moments later that fighter is lifted into the air...losing the penalty from the loose gravel... o_O
I'm not saying there shouldn't be other penalties applied, I'm just saying you're not a sitting duck. Although in this case anyone using clever grappling would be applying holds that allow the loose ground to aid them, and you would in turn be attempting to break out of said holds and move by using the (all be it diminished) leverage of the floor. Once lifted however, its quite tough to break out of the hold, but you're no longer sliding about the place with poor floor purchase, because you're not relying on it for movement anymore.

Quote:
I think piñatas are a red herring here. For one thing they spin freely from a single point and are suspended from a point high above swinging wildly. Also, for all their movement, they don't really dodge attacks; people just don't get to use the rules for attacking stationary targets against them.
I was mostly pointing out that even a simple swinging object can easy evade a direct hit simply by being in a less than ideal motion when an attack lands. Yes it doesn't dodge, but it can passively deflect attacks made against it. A wiggling person could do similar.

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There is a big difference between lifting yourself up and being picked up.
Well this is why I mentioned being on a wire too. Also, I've gotten my clothing hitched on more than one branch in my time, literally suspending me from them, and it isn't hard to wiggle and move about.

If you'd rather, think of a baby squirming in your hands whilst you're holding them under the arms - those kids have next to no ST, are not trained in anyway, and yet still manage to kick and twist about enough to make it tough to hold em in place - and sometimes even slip out of your hands (if they're in a foul enough mood and really struggling). If a baby can do it, so can a person.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:46 AM   #18
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

Technical grappling does deal with some of this explicitly, with a move called a Pickup, as well as some advice on TK.
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Old 09-27-2013, 10:59 AM   #19
Yako
 
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
One potential "problem" with GURPS is that the names of the advantages do no always match up with the expectations of the players. TK is a perfect example of this. I would suggest you read GURPS Psionic Powers (Powers has the information in it, but Psionic Powers makes it easier to deal with psionics).

Usually a fictional ability such as TK requires TK + Binding + an IA or two. It may require more if you believe that TK includes pyro and cryokinesis.

It's best to read the descriptions of all the abilities in order to understand the limitiations.
I have read both Powers and Psionic Powers and thus, frankly, I do not see the point you want to make.

I think no one so far even mentioned Pyrokinesis, so, really, what are you going on about?

The problem is that the situation, namely being lifted above ground, does not match the players' expectation.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PseudoFenton View Post
You can still leverage against the hands/force that are holding you up. You can swing and twist your body, and pull your limbs in or flail them about - all of this would enable you to perform some level of dodge.

If it were a person holding you up, you could kick off from their body, pull yourself up using their arms or otherwise yank/swing/wriggle to suddenly shift their centre of gravity and thus alter your relative position to everything else (even if you're still being held at a fixed arms-length distance from the grappler). Although its harder to push off against a TK force, as its just hands, nothing says it doesn't respond with some shift within the hex it resides when forces apply against it (even if those forces can only apply whilst they're gripping the thing applying those forces).
Compare:

Two fighters are standing on loose gravel, giving a penalty to dodge. One of the fighters is grabbed by the other, now he has the penalty from the loose gravel and the penalties from being grappled applying to his dodge.

-to-

Moments later that fighter is lifted into the air...losing the penalty from the loose gravel... o_O
I agree with this exactly, it illustrates that the rules thus would make it more favourable to stand on bad ground than on no ground at all, this seems off.

I want to repeat my own opening post, I was wondering whether EITHER a penalty due to having no footing at all applies, or if you can treat lifting someone into the air as a sort of pseudo pin, with all the regular rolls.

Quote:
Well this is why I mentioned being on a wire too. Also, I've gotten my clothing hitched on more than one branch in my time, literally suspending me from them, and it isn't hard to wiggle and move about.

If you'd rather, think of a baby squirming in your hands whilst you're holding them under the arms - those kids have next to no ST, are not trained in anyway, and yet still manage to kick and twist about enough to make it tough to hold em in place - and sometimes even slip out of your hands (if they're in a foul enough mood and really struggling). If a baby can do it, so can a person.
And is this not much more a matter of breaking free than dodging?

First, remember that people hold babies CAREFULLY, not using their full strength not to hurt them accidentally and are often not really apt at holding something small, like people who let a pet fall to the ground accidentally.

Imagine though, would someone who, very maliciously and with you as an accomplice, tries to hit said baby with a blunt object, have a pretty easy time when you lift the baby into the air?

Twisting around and such is, mostly, something against your grip, but does the one held move around enough to make a more difficult target? Enough to apply almost his full dodge, with just a -1 thrown in?

You can of course argue that dodging at all when grappled is a bit on the optimistic side, possibly requiring a more severe penalty, but I do think it is rather clear that it should be a disadvantageous situation to be made to loose ground contact.
It might well be that it would not be trivial to hold someone in the air (for a starter, he is now encumbring you and if he tries to hit you, you will have far worse chances of deflecting him), but that is another story.

@DouglasCole: I admit, I have not read through it, especially since I fear it will be a bit too complex for my gaming group, I already have to remind them of the normal combat options, if I introduce a more complex grappling system, I fear it would at best mean they are even more perplexed... ^^ ;

Is there a good tip for the standard system you could give?
I did read about pickups a bit and they do sound exactly of how I think it should work, I just have to read upon the CP syste to fully understand it.

Last edited by Yako; 09-27-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 09-27-2013, 11:22 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dodging while being levitated by Telekinesis?

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Originally Posted by PseudoFenton View Post
I'm not saying there shouldn't be other penalties applied, I'm just saying you're not a sitting duck.
Then I think we are in agreement.
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