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Old 07-21-2014, 06:07 PM   #41
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Hmm, or 20pts in All-weapons talent, and say 4 points in three skills. That means you have A with 1 skill at 20, or 1 character with 3 skills at 17. If you have Two-Handed Sword at 20, and I have Sword, Shield(Buckler) and Brawling or Knife, then you do NOT "slaughter me".
Shield is not a melee weapon skill. Other than that, yes, a 5 point melee weapon talent is reasonable for exactly the reason you're pointing out...
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Old 07-21-2014, 07:44 PM   #42
Verjigorm
 
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Shield is not a melee weapon skill. Other than that, yes, a 5 point melee weapon talent is reasonable for exactly the reason you're pointing out...
It's reasonable if the intent is to sharply reduce the points spent on weapon skill and DX. For any warrior, there is no reason not to spend the 1point more to increase the default of all your melee skills.

For the equivilent of being DX +6(Skill 16) in one weapon you can be DX +1(Skill 15) in your primary weapon, and default to 9 for the rest of weapons. A few points in those other weapon skills, and you are suddenly very proficient in a wider range of weapons than if you just spent all those points on 1 skill.

Disarms happen. Weapons break. Weapons get lost or damaged. You get attacked when your primary weapon isn't socially acceptable. Different weapons have different effectivenesses against different opponents.

A sword is awesome, but at ST 12 against mail you arn't going to cripple arms or legs with cutting attacks, and your thrust needs to target the vitals to really be a reliable fight stopper. A mace used by the same man will cripple an arm or leg or major wound the torso through the armor. But against an unarmored or lightly armored man, the cutting damage of a sword is much better. Both weapons are of minimal use to you if your opponent is more distant from you and you can't close for a variety of reasons(difficult ground from piles of corpses, mud, tangled undergrowth, rocky scree, rubble are other reasons), or if your opponent is elevated.

Then there's the fantastic stuff, like golems, animated statues, undead and other various things. Being able to have a good back up that doesn't make you a liability is essential. I always hated when we needed to be able to set up a crossbow ambush, or use polearms or spears to defend a narrow corridor, and there's that idiot with his rapier, and that's all he knows how to do. Bleh.
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

To get back on topic :

A leveled advantage I made for a game world I'm working on does something along those lines only it's balanced against other world specific stuff however it might suit a Conan game .

It is a modification of Combat Reflexes called Modified Combat Reflexes {:)} that goes thus :
5 points buys Level 0 which gives Combat Reflexes minus the +1 active defences bonus .
15 points {5+10} buys Level 1 which adds +1 to all weapons skills including shields and unarmed/natural , +1 Strength for determining damage {including bows and crossbows} , Strength Requirements {including overcoming Unready weapon condition} and +1 H.P. .
25 points {5+10+10} buys Level 3 which adds +1 to active defences {just like RAW Combat Reflexes} .
Each extra level is 10 points and adds offensive then defensive in turn ; in My setting it maxes out at 5 levels .

If that doesn't suit the perhaps something like this ...
Natural Warrior :
Level 1 [15 points] All critical failures must be verified {re-roll Vs skill and if not a critical failure is merely a normal miss} and +1 to all weapons skills including shields and unarmed/natural , +1 Strength for determining damage {including bows and crossbows} , Strength Requirements {including overcoming Unready weapon condition} and +1 H.P. .
Level 2 [25 points] Luck usable once per combat on roll directly related to combat {includes DX rolls to keep footing/balance and H.T. rolls Vs unconsciousness and death} during combat .
Each extra level add another +1 offence then Luck in turn and costs 10 xp .
Modify costs and set maximum level to suit ? As written , Conan could easily have 5 or 6 levels of this {Howard didn't mind going over the top with His favourite Cimmerian} .
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Old 07-21-2014, 08:24 PM   #44
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
It's reasonable if the intent is to sharply reduce the points spent on weapon skill and DX.
Huh? No, it has very little effect on either value unless you're talking about the multi-weapon fighter. Who is, as I've said before, a bad choice in RAW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
For the equivilent of being DX +6(Skill 16) in one weapon you can be DX +1(Skill 15) in your primary weapon, and default to 9 for the rest of weapons. A few points in those other weapon skills, and you are suddenly very proficient in a wider range of weapons than if you just spent all those points on 1 skill.
So what?
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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
A sword is awesome, but at ST 12 against mail you arn't going to cripple arms or legs with cutting attacks, and your thrust needs to target the vitals to really be a reliable fight stopper. A mace used by the same man will cripple an arm or leg or major wound the torso through the armor.
The mace does 2 points more damage than a balanced light club. 2 points of Striking ST[10] will thus allow the light club to do as much damage as the mace, plus it's a balanced weapon and I can also apply the damage bonus to my sword skill. This puts an upper value on the ability to use a mace of 10 points, and given the liabilities of using a mace, the actual value is maybe 5 points.

Yes, secondary weapon types have their uses, but those uses are almost always niche uses, of quite low value. It might be more balanced to allow Alternate Attacks for different weapon skills, but that's a bigger rules deviation than melee weapon talent, and more abusable.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:28 PM   #45
Verjigorm
 
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Huh? No, it has very little effect on either value unless you're talking about the multi-weapon fighter. Who is, as I've said before, a bad choice in RAW.

So what?

The mace does 2 points more damage than a balanced light club. 2 points of Striking ST[10] will thus allow the light club to do as much damage as the mace, plus it's a balanced weapon and I can also apply the damage bonus to my sword skill. This puts an upper value on the ability to use a mace of 10 points, and given the liabilities of using a mace, the actual value is maybe 5 points.

Yes, secondary weapon types have their uses, but those uses are almost always niche uses, of quite low value. It might be more balanced to allow Alternate Attacks for different weapon skills, but that's a bigger rules deviation than melee weapon talent, and more abusable.
I don't think you're getting this at all. If you are going to spend more than 20 points on a weapon skill, it makes more sense to buy four levels of weapon talent. At 24 points spent you could have Broadsword-16, compared to Broadsword 15. You also gain a reaction bonus to the sort of people being good with weapons impresses, as well as reduced time requirements for studying weapons skills. And with the occasional odd CP or two, you can be just as good with any weapon.

I'm having a hard time understanding what sort of low-tech or fantasy game revolves around always being able to have a sword.
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Old 07-21-2014, 09:34 PM   #46
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I don't think you're getting this at all. If you are going to spend more than 20 points on a weapon skill, it makes more sense to buy four levels of weapon talent.
Huh?
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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
At 24 points spent you could have Broadsword-16, compared to Broadsword 15.
DX 10, 24 points in broadsword, gives broadsword 16. DX 10, 4 levels talent, 4 points in broadsword, gives broadsword 15.
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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
You also gain a reaction bonus to the sort of people being good with weapons impresses, as well as reduced time requirements for studying weapons skills.
I loathe both of those rules, so it influences how I think about talents.
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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I'm having a hard time understanding what sort of low-tech or fantasy game revolves around always being able to have a sword.
If secondary weapon skills were sensibly priced this wouldn't be a problem. Say, all of them default to one another at a maximum of -4. However, given the way GURPS works, hyper-specializing in one weapon is the way to go.
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Old 07-22-2014, 03:40 AM   #47
namada
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Last edited by namada; 09-21-2014 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:43 AM   #48
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Originally Posted by fartrader View Post
Unless your sword breaks
Having additional weapon skills won't help you there unless you've either got a backup weapon or scrounge up a weapon from a downed foe. In the first case, it's often as easy to carry a backup weapon that uses your primary skill (or a skill with a decent default from it) as it is to carry a backup that uses a different one. For the latter, you're typically not that unlikely to find a sword-class weapon to pick up unless the GM is specifically avoiding giving you such.

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Originally Posted by fartrader View Post
you're disarmed
More likely for the low-skill generalist than the high-skill specialist. Skill 20 is a lot harder to disarm than skill 14. The exception is if you've had all your weapons taken away... in which case you're falling back on scrounged weapons (see above) or unarmed skills (which should be considered separately from weapon skills, and where it's always a good idea to have some degree of competence).

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Originally Posted by fartrader View Post
or you die from arrows as you close range with your enemy.
This calls for ranged combat skill - which, like unarmed, every character should invest in. That or a shield, which even specialists (unless they are two-handed specialists, in which case their armor should protect them) should have at least some skill in the use of.

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Originally Posted by fartrader View Post
If there's a 10 yard space and my character has knives to throw, my character could hit yours with them before you'll even take a swing at me with your sword-20, and then your character would be wading into combat already injured.
Even assuming the swordsman lacks any sort of ranged combat capability, and isn't smart enough to carry a shield, he's probably got Parry-14 (Combat Reflexes is pretty much a given at those skill levels). Thrown knives are parried at -2, so that means he's got a 75% chance of Parrying anything you toss his way. You, being a generalist, are unlikely to have Thrown Weapon (Knives) above 15, and may have it lower. Until he reaches the 7 yard point, you've got a greater chance of missing him outright than forcing him to try and Parry. Assuming the swordsman is unarmored (necessary for you to be able to hurt him with your knives), he's probably got Move 5 or 6, meaning he'll be on top of you in two seconds. If you toss your first knife at 10 yards, then the next at 4/5 (we'll assume you Fast Draw), you'll need to draw a melee weapon when he reaches you to have anything close to a chance. At that point, you've had one shot to hit him at 10 yards (~10% chance of a hit) and another at 4 or 5 yards (~15% chance of a hit). That means you have all of a 1-in-4 chance of having managed to hit him at all (likely not even for a Major Wound), and once he reaches you you're probably done for.

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Originally Posted by fartrader View Post
Or if that doesn't work for you, there are far too many variables for you to say sword-20 always wins. It's usually a great idea to be more skilled than your opponent, as the more skilled opponent usually wins, but if you've ever played GURPS, you should know that tactics usually play a greater role than skill does, except in that 1-hex fight scenario. If we're going to continue that line of discussion, how about we set some values to the variables?
Broadsword-20 isn't always going to win, of course. However, in general, a character with Broadsword-20 is going to do better than a character with Broadsword-16 and Axe/Mace-16 or a slew of skills at 14 - because in general, the character with Broadsword-20 is likely to have a freaking sword in any situation where the generalists are likely to have any weapon at all. Yes, if the GM specifically engineers the situation where you only have access to Axe/Mace weapons, the swordsman is screwed. Typically, any situation the GM has specifically engineered to screw your character screws your character, and being a generalist isn't going to protect you from that.

Last edited by Varyon; 07-22-2014 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:56 AM   #49
Anders
 
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Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Frost View Post
To get back on topic :

It is a modification of Combat Reflexes called Modified Combat Reflexes {:)} that goes thus :
5 points buys Level 0 which gives Combat Reflexes minus the +1 active defences bonus .
15 points {5+10} buys Level 1 which adds +1 to all weapons skills including shields and unarmed/natural , +1 Strength for determining damage {including bows and crossbows} , Strength Requirements {including overcoming Unready weapon condition} and +1 H.P. .
25 points {5+10+10} buys Level 3 which adds +1 to active defences {just like RAW Combat Reflexes} .
Each extra level is 10 points and adds offensive then defensive in turn ; in My setting it maxes out at 5 levels .

If that doesn't suit the perhaps something like this ...
Natural Warrior :
Level 1 [15 points] All critical failures must be verified {re-roll Vs skill and if not a critical failure is merely a normal miss} and +1 to all weapons skills including shields and unarmed/natural , +1 Strength for determining damage {including bows and crossbows} , Strength Requirements {including overcoming Unready weapon condition} and +1 H.P. .
Level 2 [25 points] Luck usable once per combat on roll directly related to combat {includes DX rolls to keep footing/balance and H.T. rolls Vs unconsciousness and death} during combat .
Each extra level add another +1 offence then Luck in turn and costs 10 xp .
Modify costs and set maximum level to suit ? As written , Conan could easily have 5 or 6 levels of this {Howard didn't mind going over the top with His favourite Cimmerian} .
Interesting. I'll look closely at this.
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:07 PM   #50
Verjigorm
 
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Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: Has anyone done any Melee Weapon Talents?

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Broadsword-20 isn't always going to win, of course. However, in general, a character with Broadsword-20 is going to do better than a character with Broadsword-16 and Axe/Mace-16 or a slew of skills at 14 - because in general, the character with Broadsword-20 is likely to have a freaking sword in any situation where the generalists are likely to have any weapon at all. Yes, if the GM specifically engineers the situation where you only have access to Axe/Mace weapons, the swordsman is screwed. Typically, any situation the GM has specifically engineered to screw your character screws your character, and being a generalist isn't going to protect you from that.
Again, we are not discussing Broadsword-20 vs other skills at 20. We're talking about broadsword 16 or 17 vs other weapon skills of 15. And Reaction bonus AND less time spent studying
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