Independent Vs. Persistent on Control

[Kelly Pedersen]

On Powers, p.91, it is suggested that Persistent be used to allow Control to last past the time you stop concentrating. However, this seems clearly less good than Independent. Independent gives you your margin of success in minutes of duration, and it would seem be explicitly applicable - it says it's for "advantages that require concentration to control" (Powers, p. 108). But both are +40% enhancements. Is there some major benefit that Persistent gives that Independent doesn't that I'm not seeing? Or is the mention of Persistent just an errata in the Control writeup?

[Pomphis]

I believe the difference is that Independent means that the ability is independent from the moment of the activation roll on, whereas Persistent only takes over after concentration ceases. Independent gives more time, but at the price of losing the ability to use Control for a long time while concentrating first.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

On Powers, p.91, it is suggested that Persistent be used to allow Control to last past the time you stop concentrating. However, this seems clearly less good than Independent. Independent gives you your margin of success in minutes of duration, and it would seem be explicitly applicable - it says it's for "advantages that require concentration to control" (Powers, p. 108). But both are +40% enhancements. Is there some major benefit that Persistent gives that Independent doesn't that I'm not seeing? Or is the mention of Persistent just an errata in the Control writeup?

Pomphis pointed out one distinction, but the real kicker is in the text of Independent, where it says that the effects last for minutes equal to your MoS (as you noted), OR "its usual duration - whichever is less". <emphasis mine> This should be taken to mean that you cannot add it traits to extend their duration, as their normal duration is a cap on the effects of Independent. Persistent is the modifier you will need to do that with Control.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Pomphis pointed out one distinction, but the real kicker is in the text of Independent, where it says that the effects last for minutes equal to your MoS (as you noted), OR "its usual duration - whichever is less". <emphasis mine> This should be taken to mean that you cannot add it traits to extend their duration, as their normal duration is a cap on the effects of Independent. Persistent is the modifier you will need to do that with Control.

No, this isn't correct. I confirmed with Kromm that Independent works just fine on Control. It was explicitly intended to work well with "maintained" abilities, like Mind Control, TK, and Control.

Pomphis has it right. The advantage to Persistent is that it is additive -- if you concentrate for an hour, then you get an hour, and you get the Persistent time on top of that, once you stop concentrating.

With Independent, you can't get that hour. No matter how long you're willing to concentrate for, you get minutes equal to MoS. That's it. No more, no less.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

No, this isn't correct. I confirmed with Kromm that Independent works just fine on Control. It was explicitly intended to work well with "maintained" abilities, like Mind Control, TK, and Control.

Was that covered in the forums? I recall having an issue with the phrasing of Independent before, but I don't remember an official tightening of the definition. It's certainly not the way most people would interpret that "whichever is less" bit.

[Bruno]

The problem is when people try to read an "undefined" duration as "1 second".

"Undefined" is potentially "Forever, or until I have to go take a a potty break or something." That's a long duration, not a short one.

[Not another shrubbery]

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with that ruling. It's just that it's not obvious to me that that is what was meant in the text, suggesting a possible errata.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with that ruling. It's just that it's not obvious to me that that is what was meant in the text, suggesting a possible errata.

Looks like we're expecting a FAQ update submission in a week or two. Adding to my TODO list.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Pomphis has it right. The advantage to Persistent is that it is additive -- if you concentrate for an hour, then you get an hour, and you get the Persistent time on top of that, once you stop concentrating.

Ah, now I understand. I had missed that distinction. Ok, that makes more sense now. Sorry to be obtuse. :-)

[PK]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The problem is when people try to read an "undefined" duration as "1 second".

"Undefined" is potentially "Forever, or until I have to go take a a potty break or something." That's a long duration, not a short one.

QFT.

Control + Persistent has a duration that is indefinite. It could be days if you have enough caffeine in you. This is balanced by the fact that you have to sit there and concentrate.

Control + Independent is a flat (well, more flat than the above, hopefully you know what I mean) duration of a few minutes. This is balanced by the fact that you can walk away.