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Old 04-20-2017, 10:21 PM   #11
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by J. Edward Tremlett View Post
But let's be honest -- am I the only one who has that song going through my head when I read it?
I have no idea what song you're talking about. Is there a song called simply "Epic"?
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:40 PM   #12
PK
 
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I have no idea what song you're talking about. Is there a song called simply "Epic"?
Yep. As happens with many bands, it is not Faith No More's best song, but it is the one that got the most radio play. (I recommend "Midlife Crisis" or "Superhero" myself.)

Er, I feel like infracting myself for continuing a tangent, but damn the rules.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:52 PM   #13
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

Well, to return to our primary topic, here's a little behind the scenes:

Of the ideas that went into Götterdämmerung, the one that makes me happiest is the Trained power modifier. This takes off from the remark in GURPS Powers that power modifiers can perfectly well work out to 0%. It has three components: a Nuisance Effect requirement for Maintenance of one session per week per ability, based on Teaching skill as used by one person (-5%); gradual fading of the ability if the requirement isn't met, too slow to endanger you (+5%); and a requirement for a week away from adventuring to regain neglected skills (+0%)—which works out to 0%.

The Basic Set equates an hour of formal instruction with two hours of self-study, so I thought it was legitimate to treat two sessions a week as equivalent.

What this is, is a PM for "super normals" like Zorro, the Lone Ranger, Batman, or Hawkeye. They have to train regularly, and the ones with lots of abilities have to do so almost constantly. If they slack off, they lose their edge, and then they have to work hard to get it back. This actually sort of approximates the way real training works, but fictional characters often don't seem to do it much. On the other hand, it works well to have a hero like Batman put in time keeping up his abilities.

The other aspect of this is that it doesn't make you superhuman; it makes you a super normal, with traits that put you at the high end of human ability. You can go a little past that with Special Training perks, but anything that's too steep for Special Training to cover is off limits.

Where other heroes of Götterdämmerung come from one or another of the submerged histories, a Trained hero could be a normal person who's just obsessed. Think about the second Hawkeye in Young Avengers, for example.

Anyway, that's what this particular gimmick is for. . . .
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by PK View Post
Yep. As happens with many bands, it is not Faith No More's best song, but it is the one that got the most radio play. (I recommend "Midlife Crisis" or "Superhero" myself.)

Er, I feel like infracting myself for continuing a tangent, but damn the rules.
I'll just leave this here... This is where my brain goes for 'epic'...

Damn you, catchy advertising!

Great issue, btw!

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
What this is, is a PM for "super normals" like Zorro, the Lone Ranger, Batman, or Hawkeye. They have to train regularly, and the ones with lots of abilities have to do so almost constantly. If they slack off, they lose their edge, and then they have to work hard to get it back. This actually sort of approximates the way real training works, but fictional characters often don't seem to do it much. On the other hand, it works well to have a hero like Batman put in time keeping up his abilities.
I would normally have a nervous twitch to these kinds of things. I wouldn't see it limiting a character in the course of a typical game as arranging for a few hours training time should be fairly trivial unless you are laid up in a hospital bed. It skirts close to a 'disadvantage that doesn't disadvantage' in my mind. Did you consider this angle? What was your take on it?

Last edited by dbm; 04-21-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

I'm enjoying this issue. I would love to see a GURPS supplement that expands on "Many Lives, One Adventure" with worked examples.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Well, to return to our primary topic, here's a little behind the scenes:

Of the ideas that went into Götterdämmerung, the one that makes me happiest is the Trained power modifier. This takes off from the remark in GURPS Powers that power modifiers can perfectly well work out to 0%. It has three components: a Nuisance Effect requirement for Maintenance of one session per week per ability, based on Teaching skill as used by one person (-5%); gradual fading of the ability if the requirement isn't met, too slow to endanger you (+5%); and a requirement for a week away from adventuring to regain neglected skills (+0%)—which works out to 0%.

The Basic Set equates an hour of formal instruction with two hours of self-study, so I thought it was legitimate to treat two sessions a week as equivalent.

What this is, is a PM for "super normals" like Zorro, the Lone Ranger, Batman, or Hawkeye. They have to train regularly, and the ones with lots of abilities have to do so almost constantly. If they slack off, they lose their edge, and then they have to work hard to get it back. This actually sort of approximates the way real training works, but fictional characters often don't seem to do it much. On the other hand, it works well to have a hero like Batman put in time keeping up his abilities.

The other aspect of this is that it doesn't make you superhuman; it makes you a super normal, with traits that put you at the high end of human ability. You can go a little past that with Special Training perks, but anything that's too steep for Special Training to cover is off limits.

Where other heroes of Götterdämmerung come from one or another of the submerged histories, a Trained hero could be a normal person who's just obsessed. Think about the second Hawkeye in Young Avengers, for example.

Anyway, that's what this particular gimmick is for. . . .
It does seem odd that it works out to +0%, when it certainly seems slightly limited by comparison to just having the advantage or ability with no need for continued practice, although I can see where the combination of effects would not be worth even the minimum -5%. Anyway, what would be the main benefit of taking such a Power Modifier of +0%, as opposed to just taking the abilities without any PM - just the availability of a Power Talent that could cover a whole bunch of use cases? And if that's the case, just how broadly could such a Power Talent be applied, especially if a character takes some attribute bumps using the Trained Power Modifier?
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by dbm View Post
I would normally have a nervous twitch to these kinds of things. I wouldn't see it limiting a character in the course of a typical game as arranging for a few hours training time should be fairly trivial unless you are laid up in a hospital bed. It skirts close to a 'disadvantage that doesn't disadvantage' in my mind. Did you consider this angle? What was your take on it?
That may be, but it's not like they get even a point for it, as they would for a Quirk. I mean, you did notice that it was priced at +0%, right?
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:29 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

An excellent issue! The highlights for me were Pulver, Stoddard and Rice's Imbued Items article.

The two settings were rich and gameable and had useful crunch.

The Imbuement piece had a useful sub-system for producing exceptional items in a setting that didn't not use standard Magic without immersion disrupting details such "as write it up as a Gadget and pay CP.". It gave me the feel of something done within the setting by real people living there and that's what I want.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:38 AM   #19
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
It does seem odd that it works out to +0%, when it certainly seems slightly limited by comparison to just having the advantage or ability with no need for continued practice, although I can see where the combination of effects would not be worth even the minimum -5%. Anyway, what would be the main benefit of taking such a Power Modifier of +0%, as opposed to just taking the abilities without any PM - just the availability of a Power Talent that could cover a whole bunch of use cases? And if that's the case, just how broadly could such a Power Talent be applied, especially if a character takes some attribute bumps using the Trained Power Modifier?
Here is what Powers says about zero-cost modifiers: First, a power might, for example, "require minor upkeep that the user can safely put off for a day" and things like this are "worth +0%, but you should still note them, because they can matter in play." A hero who has, say, the Coordination power, and has five abilities within it, has to spend 5 hours a week with their teacher, or ten hours a week in solo practice; that's not nothing. Second, a +0% marker "determines which advantages benefit from the power's Talent and what traits those who have the power can add later on." This might even include Power Defenses.

There's also the use of "abilities enhancing skills." I wouldn't allow +4 for powers in this group—nothing resulting from training should be "miraculous"—but if, for example, you have Lightning Calculator, and can make a roll vs. IQ+Talent to set up a complex problem, a +2 to a skill that requires calculations, such as Astronomy or Engineer, doesn't seem out of line. And a character with Trained powers might be allowed Special Exercises to justify training that goes slightly past normal limits.

The main point is to open up some of the options in GURPS Powers to super normals—characters like Batman who can do amazing things without actually having "powers." And it's also a basis for exploring the use of +0% modifiers, which Powers hints at but doesn't really develop.

On the other hand, note that I specifically am not letting the Power Talents be used as regular Talents to give direct bonuses to groups of skills. If you take Enhanced Manipulation, for example, you get +1 to +4 for levels of High Manual Dexterity, but the talent doesn't add to the bonus.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:41 AM   #20
dbm
 
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Default Re: Pyramid #3/102: Epic

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
That may be, but it's not like they get even a point for it, as they would for a Quirk. I mean, you did notice that it was priced at +0%, right?
I was focussing in the -5% offsetting a +5% which you would otherwise have to pay for, but on further reflection you (and Bill) are right. It's small potatoes.
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