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Old 02-28-2011, 04:33 PM   #11
Agemegos
 
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
the combined weight of a cybersuit and combat hardsuit is far less than the weight of a Commando Battlesuit. So if the battlesuit does not impose a DX penalty, why should the combination do so if it is specially designed to work together?
Good point.

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
Why cant you wear a bioplas suit or a nanoweave suit under your commando battlesuit without penalty? Assuming soldiers do not wear their commando battlesuits over bare skin (though actually, this DOES put the commando in commando battlesuits)
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it seems they should be able to wear the clothing level armors under it
I have always presumed that the weight, DR, and fit of high-tech armour included the usual protective undergarments, the way mail stats include a padded gambeson. (B.282 says "Each item on the tables includes an article of light, common clothing to wear underneath – or padding, if this is usual for the armor (e.g., mail includes cloth padding under the chain). The statistics already reflect this; you do not have to buy clothing or padding separately, or account for its DR and weight.")

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I believe that tailoring the two armours to work together was the plan here. And yes, of course the Combat Hardsuit would be useless without an inner layer that matched the dimensions of the Cybersuit. That's just common sense.

"Anything that common sense tells us is worth writing down", as the Tortoise said to Achilles.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:21 PM   #12
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by Brett View Post
I have always presumed that the weight, DR, and fit of high-tech armour included the usual protective undergarments, the way mail stats include a padded gambeson. (B.282 says "Each item on the tables includes an article of light, common clothing to wear underneath – or padding, if this is usual for the armor (e.g., mail includes cloth padding under the chain). The statistics already reflect this; you do not have to buy clothing or padding separately, or account for its DR and weight.")
The question isn't 'do you need to wear something under it'. The question is, can you wear a t-shirt under it without problems?
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:39 PM   #13
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
The question isn't 'do you need to wear something under it'. The question is, can you wear a t-shirt under it without problems?
For the reasons I stated before, I'd say no. The only underclothes you'd be likely to wear on most of the suits would be a skin-tight body stocking, to wick away sweat and protect the interior of the suit without interfering with the motion-amplification interface. Even a normal cotton t-shirt would tend to bunch up and hamper movement, so I'd assess at least -1 DX, and possibly extra Fatigue penalties for prolonged use.

There are exceptions to this, of course. The unarmored Exoskeletons are not so tight-fitting and should be worn with other clothes. I'd allow flexible armor to be worn under most Exo suits, and perhaps modified hard armor to be strapped to the outside (to make a poor-man's Battlesuit). The TL 9 Combat Walker is explicitly a "one-size fits all" suit, so the user could at least wear street clothes or equivalently light flexible armor in it. At TL 11 the suits utilize a nanogel "glove" to allow users within 10% of the suit's specified dimensions, though I'd still assess penalties for any but the tightest-fitting clothes or armor - again, because loose clothes would bunch up and interfere with control.

I don't know that my opinion matches RAW perfectly, but I think it's reasonably close.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:59 AM   #14
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by Brett View Post
the way mail stats include a padded gambeson.
I would argue that if TL3 folks can custom tailor layered armor to stack without DX penalties, TL10 folks should be able to do the same. This should cost something compared to the DX penalty version - exactly what is lost will depend on the developer's needs. Given the Mink's resources, more money for more capability seems standard, so I'd just bump the cost.

For that matter, it seems to me that people are not invariant in body shape even over the course of a single mission, so the various powered armors probably have something like this built in already.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
I would argue that if TL3 folks can custom tailor layered armor to stack without DX penalties, TL10 folks should be able to do the same.
I don't think there's an example anywhere in LT of that being allowed, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

The padding layer included in various LT armors is not armor in its own right...omitting it does reduce the DR provided, but it does so in exactly the same way as incorrectly-tailored armor does.

When you add a layer of padding thick enough to provide any additional DR, you get layering penalties.
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Old 03-01-2011, 09:49 AM   #16
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I got the impression that having an undersuit for light duty and a reinforced overarmour for assault was a part of it.

Personally, I'd say that designing an armour as underlayer and overlayer ought to be possible. It should add cost, sure, but even the combined weight of a cybersuit and combat hardsuit is far less than the weight of a Commando Battlesuit. So if the battlesuit does not impose a DX penalty, why should the combination do so if it is specially designed to work together?
When you compare the ballistic cloth vs tactical suit examples, it seems logical that tailoring the cybersuit as an undersuit would reduce cost; comparable to the difference between combat trousers and longjohns, ie no pockets or attachment points, just cloth.
Then again, it would also be logical to reduce weight and DR proportionally, ie treating the military cybersuit as advanced bioplas (I think it compares them in the description.)
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: [UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
I don't think there's an example anywhere in LT of that being allowed, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

The padding layer included in various LT armors is not armor in its own right...omitting it does reduce the DR provided, but it does so in exactly the same way as incorrectly-tailored armor does.

When you add a layer of padding thick enough to provide any additional DR, you get layering penalties.
A padded gambeson should likely give DR 1(vs cutting only), however.

And there's every indication that historic warriors have layered their armor, and accepted the penalty to DX, in return for the higher DR. Segmented torso armor over mail, for example, or the Cherbourg brestplate over a mail hauberk.

In any case, I don't understand why a suit that is capable of exactly mimicing your body movement(to the point that it doesn't penalize DX if you don't have Battlesuit skill) and even amplyfying that would give a DX penalty. This is effectively a "second skin", rather than armor.
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