06-20-2018, 10:04 AM | #21 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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But it is its own thing. In particular, the way it deals with enchantment is something separate from how Path/Book Magic deals with enchantment — which is to say, the latter mostly doesn't deal with it. |
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06-20-2018, 10:08 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
The fact the RPM seems to take some of the pictures from GURPS Voodoo only adds to the confusion.
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06-20-2018, 10:10 AM | #23 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
I see you completely ignored my response to this. Not surprising, since you seem rather invested in the idea that pre-Hellstorm magic had to work according to the rules of Path/Book Magic. But it doesn't; and it's only your insistence otherwise that's creating the problem you mention in the last sentence quoted here.
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06-20-2018, 10:20 AM | #24 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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The parts of "old trad" spells that were changed to make them more functional could well have been the removal of the spirit-involing parts to concentrate on the "shaping oz particle flux" part.
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Fred Brackin |
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06-20-2018, 11:01 AM | #25 | |||
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Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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Prayers, the oral rituals of shamanism and Voudoun (ie Voodoo) all work along these lines which is how the pre-manastorm spells that actually worked were designed: "Old Trad spells often invoked the power of ancestors, spirits, saints, angels, demons or divinity." So you have spells built around what amounts to Ritual Magic somehow resulting in the "standard" magic system. But how do you go from that to the standard system? Remember that by 1948 they had enough information for university to actually have paraphysics departments. They only magic based theory they would have had at that stage of research would be the ritual magic traditions of clerics, shamanism, and Voudoun. Up to a point Newtonian physics explains how the world works; it was its inability to explain things like light and magnetism that lead to its replacement by Einstein and Mach. So for Merlin-1's history to make any sense there has to be an overlap between what eventually came out and the defacto standard magic and Ritual Magic system don't have much of one. Quote:
That is 4 years for the Bachelor with 1-2 years for a Master minimum...meaning the students started 1955 or 1954. Those students had to have a system to learn magic and it sure wasn't "shaping oz particle flux". Trying to say they did is akin to saying someone in 1909 understood time dilation and the twin paradox. Last edited by maximara; 06-20-2018 at 12:13 PM. |
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06-20-2018, 11:59 AM | #26 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
Setting aside the question of whether magic works at all in the “real world”, the world of Technomancer isn't the “real world”. It's an alternate reality where magic works according to laws that conform to the Spell-casting system found in the Basic Set, and explicitly do not conform to the Effect-Shaping system found in Voodoo, Old West, Spirits, and by extension Thaumatology:
Ritual Magic, and the associated magic system from GURPS Voodoo, is not part of this setting.If the author had wanted Ritual Magic to be used to model pre-Hellstorm magic in the world of Technomancer, he could easily have done so. Instead, he deliberately and explicitly excluded it from the setting. |
06-20-2018, 12:55 PM | #27 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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Infinity knows of many worlds where magic the way it is portrayed in the standard mana-based system but it also knows of worlds where it works completely differently. Then there are the worlds where magic that produces tangible results is completely unknown. Homeline seems to be one of them. There are probably even more worlds where the Laws of Physics work differently than they do on Homeline.
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Fred Brackin |
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06-20-2018, 01:17 PM | #28 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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I really wish they'd come up with a more different name for RPM. |
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06-20-2018, 03:36 PM | #29 | |
On Notice
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Sumter, SC
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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The only magic systems that existed Technomancer (1998) came out were: standard, the psudo-Clerical system of Fantasy/Magic, the Magic Power of 1e Supers (1990-2000), "true" clerical magic (1996) and the Voodoo system (1996). Voodoo and its more general cousin Spirits have key differences from 4e core Ritual Magic system: 1) Voodoo/Spirits didn't use magery or mana; 4e Ritual Magic does. 2) "By default, spirit powers are considered spiritual rather than magical in nature and are unaffected by Magic Resistance" (GURPS Spirits 74) and no where in the entire book does GURPS Voodoo even mention Magic Resistance; by contrast "Magic Resistance protects against all magical spells, whether cast via standard Magery, Ritual Path Magery, Power Investiture, and so on." (Thaumatology - RPM pg 5) 3) the psudo-Clerical system of Fantasy/Magic is not explicitly excluded from Merlin-1 and neither is the system of GURPS Religion. Thaumatology added the joy of Power Investiture as Modified Magery which per GURPS Religion: "Clerics use the same spell list as mages. However, clerical spells draw their power from a different source, and vary from their magical equivalents in a number of other ways." 4)"More involved options include spells from GURPS Magic – see Power Investiture (Shamanic) (p. 66) for suggestions – and the rituals under The Path of Spirit (pp. 159-162). see Power Investiture (Shamanic) (p. 66) for suggestions – and the rituals under The Path of Spirit (pp. 159-162)." - Thaumatology 209 Here we have Shamanic magic (which did/does exist on Merlin-1) that is NOT the Voodoo system at all but rather the GURPS Religion system. There are enough differences to say that 3e Voodoo/Spirits is not the same 4e Ritual Magic: the MR thing is key here. It certainly didn't help that 3e couldn't make up its mind on how to model things like Voodoo: Voodoo-Spirits had their own idea and Religion had another and the two were not in agreement...at all. Then you have all the other system 4e Magic got: Syntactic Magic and Symbol Magic boht of which logically should have existed on Merlin-1 Last edited by maximara; 06-20-2018 at 04:33 PM. |
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06-20-2018, 04:34 PM | #30 | ||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Ritual Magic (4e) in GURPS Technomancer
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I'm not saying that you can't do it; just that it isn't the “natural fit” that you asserted in your first post. Quote:
Rune magic was also explicitly excluded from the setting. Syntactic Magic wasn't; but the way the regular magic system is set up, it's something that needs to be explicitly I if it's going to officially be part of a setting — largely because when it is included, it tends to replace the spell list. Last edited by dataweaver; 06-20-2018 at 04:43 PM. |
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