More choice for "Engaged" figures?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Dodge/defend protects regardless of DX of attacks. Is there someting that needs improving with the wording?

Yes, we have discussed it on at least two other threads:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...55#post2169955
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...=155534&page=4


Some people take the Options list literally to mean that you can't Defend unless engaged, can only Defend if you move 1 hex or less, so you have to declare an option and then can't change it till your adjDX comes up.

My friends and I however thought that the Changing Options rule clearly indicates you can change your option at any time to respond to changing conditions, and it can be any option including Defend or Dodge if you moved 1/2 MA or less. So if I have DX 11 and said I was meaning to cast a spell, but a DX 13 archer shoots at me, I can elect to Dodge when I notice that (and then I'm stuck with Dodge and can't cast). Also you can Defend without being engaged (e.g. so you can try to avoid 2-hex jab). It also means that if I say I'm Defending but no one attacks me by the time my adjDX comes up, that I can switch to Attack at that point (though of course then I won't be defending if someone does attack me later).

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

Dodge/defend protects regardless of DX of attacks. Is there someting that needs improving with the wording?

Yes Steve, it always appeared to me that the intention of the rules was that Dodge/Defend happened irrespective of DX order. However, in the RAW (at least in the copies I have) these are presented like any other option; they have a movement portion and an action portion. The movement portion happens in initiative order and the actions happen in order of adjDX. Since the Dodge/Defend is the action portion of the option, it appears that this must happen in adjDX order. The only part of the rules that showed this differently was the combat example.


Also, if you look at the example Skarg gave above, you'll see an interpretation of how options can be changed during a turn. Is that the way you actually play?

It would be really great to have these things made absolutely clear in the new edition. Thanks.

[Chris Rice]

Strangely enough, this question has come up totally independently today on Boardgamegeek under the "Melee" entry. 😳😳😳

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

... Also, if you look at the example Skarg gave above, you'll see an interpretation of how options can be changed during a turn. Is that the way you actually play?

It would be really great to have these things made absolutely clear in the new edition. Thanks.

Hi Chris, everyone.
Yes, Skarg's interpretation is how we play. And I agree, making it super clear (likely with a couple examples) in the rules would be great.

Warm regards, Rick

[Kirk]

Yes, just to make sure SJ sees the problem, most of the referenced threads should be read.

In a nutshell, we play, according to our reading of the rules, that a side chooses options for each character and executes the movement portion of that option.

Characters then act in order of adjDX (also needs clarification, what DX alterations affect speed, when one acts, and which affect accuracy, how well one hits?), and can *only* change their option when it is their turn to act and if they would not violate the movement aspect of their option (and, of course, if they chose defend, for example, and made someone roll 4 dice instead of 3, they are stuck with that option).

If a character can change *at any time* this can lead to circular and potentially never ending changed options. If one can change at *any* time (say right before someone strikes), there really is *no* reason to do anything but move before actions are resolved. Announcing an option is fairly pointless, so this is one reason we determined that the action can only be changed when it is a character's turn to act. This also makes for a better combative experience, IMO, because then DX (when you act) has a better part to play.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Kirk

... In a nutshell, we play, according to our reading of the rules, that a side chooses options for each character and executes the movement portion of that option. ...

If a character can change *at any time* this can lead to circular and potentially never ending changed options. ...

Hi everyone, Kirk.
Kirk, could you give an example where a never ending series of changed options would come up? We've played it where you can change options at any time for years, and I've never seen such a thing happen.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Kirk

... If a character can change *at any time* this can lead to circular and potentially never ending changed options. If one can change at *any* time (say right before someone strikes), there really is *no* reason to do anything but move before actions are resolved. Announcing an option is fairly pointless, so this is one reason we determined that the action can only be changed when it is a character's turn to act. This also makes for a better combative experience, IMO, because then DX (when you act) has a better part to play.

Except (as discussed before in those threads linked), it really does not lead to a circular never-ending options-changing situation, as both Rick and I mentioned from our experiences playing this way.

When a figure's adjDX comes up and they act, they can't change what they're doing in reaction to someone dodging or defending against their actual attack. At no other times (except to make sure you don't move over 1/2 MA) does it matter what option others say they're planning on taking. It's irrelevant if people say they change their declared option except when an action is actually being done. People can react to a committed action, but the acting person can't change.

It's also nice because you don't have to remember what everyone declared. As in (I think) every single published example, people declare what they do when something happens.

Example:

Abe and Bob are friends, facing a 4-hex dragon.

They move first and both move 1/2 MA and engage the dragon.

They could all declare Attack or Defend, or not mention what they're doing, because it doesn't matter until someone actually takes an action.

The dragon has the highest adjDX and acts first. He chooses to attack Abe, and can't change that decision because it's his turn to do something.

Abe can then choose whether to Defend or not. If Abe defends, the dragon does not have the option to change his mind and attack Bob.

There is no reason for anyone to go back and forth.

[Kirk]

I don´t understand where the rules state, according to your interpretation, that someone *can't* change their option when it is their turn to act.

You say that you can change your option *at any time*, but then decide that *at any time* doesn't include after announcing what you are thinking about doing but then reacting to what someone else might do?

I only have, fundamentally, 1st edition rules, so please just put your quote of this *any* time restriction with a page and edition reference.

Thanks!

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Kirk

I don´t understand where the rules state, according to your interpretation, that someone *can't* change their option when it is their turn to act.

You say that you can change your option *at any time*, but then decide that *at any time* doesn't include after announcing what you are thinking about doing but then reacting to what someone else might do?

I only have, fundamentally, 1st edition rules, so please just put your quote of this *any* time restriction with a page and edition reference.

Thanks!

Hi Kirk,
I think what Skarg is saying is that you can change you action at any time, until you have used it.

We use a very slightly different rule than him, but he has explained it so nicely I won't bother confusing the issue by discussing a variant.

In his example with the dragon, it can change is action as many times as it wants. However, now DX 13 figures have to act and so the dragon says, "OK, I attack." He has used his action, and can no longer change it. We resolve its attack. After that, it can't defend, it can't dodge, it can't do anything. It's action is used up.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Kirk

I don´t understand where the rules state, according to your interpretation, that someone *can't* change their option when it is their turn to act.

You say that you can change your option *at any time*, but then decide that *at any time* doesn't include after announcing what you are thinking about doing but then reacting to what someone else might do?

I only have, fundamentally, 1st edition rules, so please just put your quote of this *any* time restriction with a page and edition reference.

I'm not sure, but I think you misunderstand me. When it is your turn to act, you can choose any option that is valid at that time. But you have to say what you actually are doing. e.g. When his adjDX comes up and it's his turn to act, the dragon can say he is Disengaging, or Defending, or Attacking (or Changing Position...). One he says he is attacking Abe, that's what he's doing, which is a new condition, and Changing Options (in both Wizard 2nd Edition and Advanced Melee) say anyone (Abe) can change their option at any time to meet changing conditions.

Now, if you're asking where it says that the Dragon can't then call Abe's Defending a changing condition, and change his option at that point, it doesn't explicitly say that anywhere that I know of. However, not only would that be really annoying, but when it is the Dragon's turn to actually act and he declares he is attacking Abe, it seems really clear to me that not only does it make gameplay clear and unproblematic, but it also just makes sense that actually declaring that you are doing an action, is different from announcing you're changing your option, and doing an action does commit you to an option.

It also seems pointless from the point of view that even if you forbade changing to Defend once you find out you're being attacked, Abe and Bob could just declare that they Defend, and then whoever finds out they weren't attacked can switch to attack when their adjDX comes up, so more or less the same difference only with an annoying formality of pre-declaring an option you might want to use instead of the one you are probably going to use, and then switching. Seems far more natural to me to just be allowed to pick Defend if attacked (and if you want to). (Of course there is a difference if you literally interpret the options list to mean that Defend requires you to have only moved 1 until your adjDX comes up.)

And even if you did decide that you wanted the rule to be that someone who's turn it is can change what they're doing whenever someone says they change their option in response to their declared action, it would be a pointless waste of time. It's still the dragon's turn to do something, and all the other players can do is say they Defend or Dodge or not in response. I guess you could play that way but why would you? It seems ridiculous to me, though I wouldn't put it past someone to find it interesting.

The point is that we never had that problem, and that there's no need for there to be a loop of declarations.