Powercells And The Draw Power Spell

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Humans are not a /TL item.[...]

Is the earth? At least one source says so >=-)

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The important distinction for this purpose is not between Conduct Power and Draw Power... but between Conduct Power... and Steal Power,

True enough. Also, neither of them is really a "spell". Much like Recover Energy (which we could call "Steal Mana"), it's a thing mages are trained to do to help them with their magic. Draw/Steal/Conduct Power would be pretty fundamental elements of all sorts of technomagical energy spells. You could just make them skills, but (like Recover Energy) there's not so much of a distinction as to really make that worthwhile.

A grittier game mixing technology and magic might require the mages to be well-learned in the technological arts, possessing various engineering design/repair skills in order to analyse the power sources, figure out how and where best to tap them, and so on.

[weby]

Originally Posted by whswhs

A power cell as such is treated as a store of energy, just like a battery, or a wound spring. So what you cast on it is Steal Power.

And that is another problem case: "What is stored power?"
If a wound spring of a catapult is, is the stone on a trebuchet?
And many other such things.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by weby

And that is another problem case: "What is stored power?"
If a wound spring of a catapult is, is the stone on a trebuchet?
And many other such things.

A stone on top of a mountain is metastable, and contains a lot of potential energy that a stone in the valley does not. A stone in the valley is metastable, and contains a lot of potential energy that a stone in Death Valley does not.

But when you draw power from an active circuit, you divert power from that circuit - the lightbulb turns off, the electric motor turns off. When you steal "power" from a battery, you discharge it. But that implies if you steal "power" from a wound spring... the spring unwinds? That actuates a machine (doing work), rather than preventing work.

What happens when you steal power from the rock balanced on top of the mountain?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by weby

And that is another problem case: "What is stored power?"

Power that can be used to make a mechine work.

If a wound spring of a catapult is, is the stone on a trebuchet?

Explain in what manner the stone is making the catapult fling?


Note... I have issues with Stealing power from mechanical power stores, none Conducting or Drawing... just Stealing. Does the catapult become unwound?


Once again my hatred of heteronyms comes to the fore...

[weby]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Explain in what manner the stone is making the catapult fling?

By falling down when released pivoting the arm.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Bruno

A stone on top of a mountain is metastable, and contains a lot of potential energy that a stone in the valley does not. A stone in the valley is metastable, and contains a lot of potential energy that a stone in Death Valley does not.

But when you draw power from an active circuit, you divert power from that circuit - the lightbulb turns off, the electric motor turns off. When you steal "power" from a battery, you discharge it. But that implies if you steal "power" from a wound spring... the spring unwinds? That actuates a machine (doing work), rather than preventing work.

What happens when you steal power from the rock balanced on top of the mountain?

Well, let's try a grandfather clock, the kind with weights that you raise internally and that descend slowly to power the movements. If you "discharge" it, what happens? With a battery, you presumably have electrons leave the anode and other electrons enter the cathode; realistically this would happen at the short-circuited maximum discharge rate, but with magic maybe it all happens in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye. But the electrons don't travel through a wire (that would be Conduct Power) or arc through the air; they don't engage with any local physical system. So presumably the weights descend to the bottom of their chains, as if the chains had disengaged from the gears and slipped through, either at the maximum local gravitational acceleration or in a single second, but without moving anything and without slamming into anything at the bottom, because all the gravitational potential energy goes into the spell, right?

I'm not sure how this works for a trébuchet, or if it does. Maybe the counterweight falls, and the ammunition just plops off the bucket? Or maybe the counterweight ghosts through the arm that's holding it up and lands on the ground? Or maybe you need a more sophisticated energy transmission system than a single level arm for the spell to work.

I can see two ways to look at the "machine" requirement. One is that the spell requires a certain predictability of the system, and lightning bolts and earthquakes, however much energy they release, just aren't reliable energy sources. The other is that what the spell is engaging with is the engineer's conceptual model of the mechanism, the Platonic form of the machine, and a natural system doesn't have that conceptual model, because no one built it. Or maybe you just need different spells to engage with organisms, or with weather, or with the Earth's geological structure. . . .

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Bruno

What happens when you steal power from the rock balanced on top of the mountain?

It loses mass? That seems like the most plausible option. Pull m x g x r sub e out of it and it's disintegrated. For the spring I suppose the molecules rearrange into a lower stress configuration (i.e. the spring "sets", and is pretty much ruined) would be the equivalent to a battery discharging.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Maybe the counterweight falls, and the ammunition just plops off the bucket?

That's how I've ruled in the past. Anemic, weakened activation of the mechanism.

I can see two ways to look at the "machine" requirement. One is that the spell requires a certain predictability of the system, and lightning bolts and earthquakes, however much energy they release, just aren't reliable energy sources. The other is that what the spell is engaging with is the engineer's conceptual model of the mechanism, the Platonic form of the machine, and a natural system doesn't have that conceptual model, because no one built it. Or maybe you just need different spells to engage with organisms, or with weather, or with the Earth's geological structure. . . .

I can't be the only one who remembers a Draw/Steal Power spell working on nature itself*... but having gone back to find them, nope.

Maybe I'm remembering a really good post online?


* With waterfalls becoming calmer and quieter, storms diffusing, downgrading in intensity, earthquakes diminishing, etc.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I can't be the only one who remembers a Draw/Steal Power spell working on nature itself*... but having gone back to find them, nope.

Maybe I'm remembering a really good post online?


* With waterfalls becoming calmer and quieter, storms diffusing, downgrading in intensity, earthquakes diminishing, etc.

People have been posting about that sort of thing for a long time. But people like me have been pointing out that it's not RAW for a long time, too, and explaining why it's not a sensible idea, quite apart from the intent of the various rules versions.

Most basically, if you want to talk about waterfalls becoming calmer, storms diffusing, and so on, there are already spells that do all those thing, in the Colleges of Air, Earth, Water, Weather, and so on. And if you want to gain mana/magical power from natural processes, well, consider that in any normal or higher mana zone, you can cast spells that do more than your metabolism could power, and as your skill increases, you gain the ability to cast them at decreased fatigue cost. So it looks to me as if tapping the flow of energy through the natural environment has always been how mana-based magic worked.