Question about Muscle-powered Range Weapons...

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

One of the great things about some* modern compound bows is that can be held at full draw without holding the full weight...

*don't think it's a universal thing is all compound bows? (not sure about that)

It is. Though, hold it long enough and your arm will tire. You're holding I think 1/3 the draw weight at full extension.

It makes using an over-strength bow easier*, but I'm not sure how much easier.


When I was younger I could break over a 60 pound compound bow and hold it for several seconds, long enough to sight and take aim, but I couldn't do that with a 60 pound recurve.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Some of the cites are a bit fanciful "transfixing two opponents at once" but a lot of the rest seem not only reasonable but well sourced and consistent.

Thanks for the interesting link! It's very good information since the Chinese standardized draw weights (like the Japanese sort of did) which gives nice historical data points.

The stories of "two opponents transfixed" aren't necessarily fanciful. There are stories of Crusaders getting "pinned" to their horses by Saracen/Ottoman horse bows as a result of hits to the rider's thigh.

Additionally, plenty of modern bow-hunters have reported torso shots (ideally to the Vitals - double lung shot) which completely penetrated a deer's body with sufficient force to drive the arrow well into the ground beyond the target! Given that a typical whitetail deer is effectively SM 0 and has 9-10 HP (assuming ~100-150 lb. live weight) that's pretty close to human size.

In GURPS terms, treat it as a critical hit which inflicts double or triple damage with basic damage which inflicts (target HP) + n HP of damage vs. an unarmored target. That means overpenetration which inflicts at least 1 HP of damage to the next target downrange. A composite bow of ST 14, which inflicts maximum damage, does 6 + 3 HP of basic damage. Roll a CH and say you double damage. That leaves 8 HP of basic damage to overpenetrate. Plenty of energy to do serious damage to another victim!

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Those who were eager to master the use of hard bows were in the emperor's view all "ambitious" (心上进之人), and for that reason the greater the pity that they were wrongly harming themselves. "

The Emperor was wise. Forensic examination of the Mary Rose archers showed young men with signs of arthritis in their shoulders, probably due to pulling excessively heavy "artillery" bows. I could see archers of other nations suffering the same consequences for their "ambition."

Part of drawing a bow is being able to draw it consistently and with a good release every time. Even if you can physically draw a heavier bow, you're going to have problems practicing with it for long and accuracy won't be as good due to muscle fatigue in your arms and fingers and inability to fully control the draw and the release.

In GURPS terms, that's a skill penalty for using too-heavy a weapon and/or FP losses due to use of Extra Effort.

Additionally, if you're struggling to draw a bow you cannot take time to aim. You must draw and then quickly release. Peering down your arrow with your bow drawn while you take your Wait or Aim maneuvers requires a bow you can easily control and/or ST-based Bow skill rolls.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*don't think it's a universal thing is all compound bows? (not sure about that)

You could design a compound bow with a draw force curve that didn't dip at the end, but it's hard to come up with a reason you'd want to.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Makes sense actually, since normally GURPS uses minST as an indicator of minimum ST required for comfortable and effective use of a weapon; treating bows as some sort of special snowflake where minST meant something different is a weird inconsistency.

Bows are a special snowflake, with fairly substantial rules to that effect in both Basic and Low Tech.

Also, the direct result is that giving a character an overstrength bow that they are too weak to properly draw increases the damage they do should they manage to hit anything with it.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

It is. Though, hold it long enough and your arm will tire. You're holding I think 1/3 the draw weight at full extension.

Some designs have 80-90% letoff - You can hold a 70# bow with 7-14# of force at full draw. Check out the force-draw curves of modern compound bows. They're nutso.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The basic rule is that bows and crossbows have rated ST, which governs their performance. You can only use a bow up to your ST, while you can use a somewhat stronger crossbow taking more time (and potentially using tools) to draw it. This is in the Basic Set. Low Tech refines and maybe adjusts some of the details in the box on p74, but the basic outline is the same.

EDIT: Actually, there's a really surprising statement on LT75 that authorizes understrength use of bows. I'm not sure what to make of that honestly.

That's consistent with the Minimum ST rules in the Basic Set. The real question is whether you get to do the bow's ST damage and range, or just your own when using a bow that's too much for you. That would depend on whether the ST of a bow is the lowest ST required to draw it completely, or the minimum ST at which you can draw the bow without suffering excessive fatigue and be able be steady enough not to suffer accuracy problems. If it's the former, being under the bow's ST would mean you do your ST's damage. If it's the latter, a case can be made for using the bow's ST for damage and range. The latter also makes for more interesting choices, in my opinion.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Some designs have 80-90% letoff - You can hold a 70# bow with 7-14# of force at full draw. Check out the force-draw curves of modern compound bows. They're nutso.

I'll accept that. My bow is over 40 years old, so it might either be "older design" or just worn out.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That's consistent with the Minimum ST rules in the Basic Set. The real question is whether you get to do the bow's ST damage and range, or just your own when using a bow that's too much for you. That would depend on whether the ST of a bow is the lowest ST required to draw it completely, or the minimum ST at which you can draw the bow without suffering excessive fatigue and be able be steady enough not to suffer accuracy problems. If it's the former, being under the bow's ST would mean you do your ST's damage. If it's the latter, a case can be made for using the bow's ST for damage and range. The latter also makes for more interesting choices, in my opinion.

It would have to be, since it appeals to them for definition. Except for the bit where in Basic they say "You cannot use a stronger bow."

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It would have to be, since it appeals to them for definition. Except for the bit where in Basic they say "You cannot use a stronger bow."

So it does, quite clearly and distinctly. I guess you get to choose whether you like the idea and go with LT, or don't and stick with Characters.

[Anthony]

DFRPG is clear and you always use the bow's ST for damage/etc.