How would you do this magic? Based on RPM/Realm/Syntactic

[Refplace]

OK, working on my magic system for the Kaya (elves) and I was going to use the RPM system. I use it in several places for this world but replace the path skills.
The 5 elements are no problem.
However to fit the background I want to add in the Muses as well.
Memory from Mneysomne is fine.
But Poetry? Dance? most of the muses realms would be more like a method of casting rather then a typical Path.
Now I do not mind, in fact it is desired to have some limited Paths.
So while a Path of Dance, Song or love poetry may not be high on an adventurers list it could be very nice at Court.
So should I make them Path skills and let people struggle to come up with good effects, use them to substitute for Thaumatology (kind of neat and could be the basis for Bards), make them action skills or modifiers that can reduce casting cost, or something else?
Or heck all the above :)

[Gef]

Why not one path for the muses collectively? I'm sure you can come up with at least one ritual for each. Are they not generally discussed collectively? I can't even name them all without looking them up. However, Calliope by herself might justify magic to imbue an adventurer with the attributes of legendary heroes, such as the strength of Heracles or cleverness of Odysseus. -GEF

[vierasmarius]

My choice in this situation would be to have a half-dozen spheres of magic (ie, Paths) but with different ways to access them depending on the tradition. So classic wizards would use Thaumatology and IQ-based Path skills, while a Bard would use Musicology (or something, don't know if there's already a RAW skill that fits) and IQ-based Path skills which default to it, and one of these dancing elves would have another appopriate replacement for Thaum and DX-based Path skills. In all cases the Paths themselves would be the same. Otherwise I think it would get unneccesarily complex. However, you could apply some limitations to certain traditions - ie, one style of casting is ill-suited for dimension-spanning effects (teleportations and summons) and so has a steep penalty to attempt those, while another style simply doesn't have access to the Path of Undead. This might qualify practitioners to a discount on their Magery and/or Adept traits.

[whswhs]

The nine muses are Calliope, epic poetry; Clio, history; Melpomene, tragedy; Thalia, comedy; Erato, lyric and love poetry; Polyhymnia, choral poetry; Euterpe, flute playing; Terpsichore, dance; and Urania, astronomy. These seem to be more modes of spell casting than classes of effects (even Urania could fit in as casting spells by doing horoscopes). Inconveniently, at least Melpomene and Polyhymnia require multiple performers, and while you could justify Thalia with a solo performer, her primary focus was on comedies as in stage plays, which needed a minimum of two.

You could always focus on the types of effects desired to be produced: Calliope to favor combat, Melpomene to induce madness and violent emotion, Erato for love, and so on.

Bill Stoddard

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Gef

Why not one path for the muses collectively? I'm sure you can come up with at least one ritual for each. Are they not generally discussed collectively?

They are often discussed in literature collectively.
But having them all be the same skill loses some of the feel I wanted to get in using them in the first place. Unless maybe I just use them to replace Thaumatology. Or maybe they default to each other.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

My choice in this situation would be to have a half-dozen spheres of magic (ie, Paths) but with different ways to access them depending on the tradition. So classic wizards would use Thaumatology and IQ-based Path skills, while a Bard would use Musicology (or something, don't know if there's already a RAW skill that fits) and IQ-based Path skills which default to it, and one of these dancing elves would have another appopriate replacement for Thaum and DX-based Path skills. In all cases the Paths themselves would be the same. Otherwise I think it would get unneccesarily complex. However, you could apply some limitations to certain traditions - ie, one style of casting is ill-suited for dimension-spanning effects (teleportations and summons) and so has a steep penalty to attempt those, while another style simply doesn't have access to the Path of Undead. This might qualify practitioners to a discount on their Magery and/or Adept traits.

I dont mind it being complex. The world has well over a dozen magic systems and I do not expect any player to want to use them all.
So if a player chose not to use this one becasue it was too complex or too weak for adventuring I am ok with that as long as it adds the flavor to the race that I want.
As to different path skills I already have at least 2 other systems and possibly more and I am not done yet. Each system uses different paths just like say you could have tree and Ogham in the same world as two syntactic systems.

But I think each Muses would be too narrow and weak as a path to be fair.
Vampires use very narrow paths but get corresponding things to make up for it and they have a lot of power.

As a method of casting though a few give me trouble, but I am leaning towards that for the moment.
Still they seem odd. Love poetry, comedy and astronomy in particular.
But we could just say that certain kinds are used more on adventures and the rest at home or the Inn. Also each method could have modifiers for casting time and certain effects. Hmm what about each skill has its own method of casting but they have a modifier on some spell effects? Love Poetry could be 1/2 the cost for love spells for example.


Ah this might even be a better way.
I use the Muses not to replace Thaumatology or as new Paths. Instead each Muse can represent a skill you call on for the energy accumulation roll.
So how good a performer you are tends to influence how fast you can accumulate energy.
And you have the option of using the normal method if you want. Say you need to be stealthy about it for example. Or instead of using the lowest path skill involved you can use your Muse skill, say Dance or poetry.
Keeps it pretty simple and adds a certain style.


I can then say the human Bards learned this from the kaya (was going to do that anyhow) but now it makes sense that they sing or recite a tale (history, Drama or Comedy) to cast spells. Also I can give a bonus based on audience participation. Originally had planed on using Cone of Power for that.

[vitruvian]

I'd probably make the Muses responsible for subpaths (possibly forms of divination specifically) within a larger Apollonian or Solar path of magic, which itself would fit into a system of paths based on the astrological planets and their correspondences. So, you'd have Telluric or earthly, lunar, solar, martial, venereal, mercurial, jovial, and saturnine aspects of magic.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by whswhs

These seem to be more modes of spell casting than classes of effects (even Urania could fit in as casting spells by doing horoscopes). Inconveniently, at least Melpomene and Polyhymnia require multiple performers, and while you could justify Thalia with a solo performer, her primary focus was on comedies as in stage plays, which needed a minimum of two.

You could always focus on the types of effects desired to be produced: Calliope to favor combat, Melpomene to induce madness and violent emotion, Erato for love, and so on.

Bill Stoddard

Thanks Bill you hit on my dilemma exactly. It could go either way as a mode of casting or an area of influence but either way was not a perfect fit and had problems. I think the energy accumulation skill might work though.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I'd probably make the Muses responsible for subpaths (possibly forms of divination specifically) within a larger Apollonian or Solar path of magic, which itself would fit into a system of paths based on the astrological planets and their correspondences. So, you'd have Telluric or earthly, lunar, solar, martial, venereal, mercurial, jovial, and saturnine aspects of magic.

No planets.
This is kind of like Disc World. Originally it was a ring world back when I ran it under 3e but in rebuilding it for Fourth Edition I made it a Chalice.
Your idea is solid though do not get me wrong. It just doesn't get me the feel I was looking for. I want Mneysmone (Memory and in some circles mother of the muses) and the Muses to be and feel important in the game. At least to this worlds version of elves.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I can then say the human Bards learned this from the kaya (was going to do that anyhow) but now it makes sense that they sing or recite a tale (history, Drama or Comedy) to cast spells. Also I can give a bonus based on audience participation. Originally had planed on using Cone of Power for that.

For some of the large group ones you might want to look at the rules for mass magic in Urban Magics. Greek amphitheaters easily held audiences far larger than the 100 who can contribute to ceremonial magic.

Bill Stoddard

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by whswhs

For some of the large group ones you might want to look at the rules for mass magic in Urban Magics. Greek amphitheaters easily held audiences far larger than the 100 who can contribute to ceremonial magic.

Bill Stoddard

Own it. Love it.
Elves (or Bards) using the system of Energy accumulation with these skills could cast some pretty powerful spells and it all fits together pretty nicely rather then a bunch of different things mixed together. And a play could act out what the spell is supposed to do. So a magical ritual of fertility for the crops could be the story of Persephone for example.