Religious Rank Structure

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Pomphis

I wouldn´t connect Divine Favor and Rank like this. Why not have a humble (low Rank) wandering monk who is greatly favored by his deity (high Divine Favor) ? Or an administrator of church lands (high Rank) who is not very favored by the deity (low Divine Favor) ? The god of war may see the necessity of having competent bookkeepers and administrators ich higher ranks, but he doesn´t have to favor them like the warriors.

The other tricky part to this, and the one that the early Church struggled with, was the idea that if someone displays Divine Favor, then they are automatically promoted to the priesthood. This led to conflicts between people who had demonstrated their faith (for example, by facing martyrdom) and people who had taken on the priestly role as instituted by Jesus and handed down through the apostolic succession—or, to put it sociologically, between people with charismatic legitimacy and people with traditional legitimacy.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The other tricky part to this, and the one that the early Church struggled with, was the idea that if someone displays Divine Favor, then they are automatically promoted to the priesthood. This led to conflicts between people who had demonstrated their faith (for example, by facing martyrdom) and people who had taken on the priestly role as instituted by Jesus and handed down through the apostolic succession—or, to put it sociologically, between people with charismatic legitimacy and people with traditional legitimacy.

Then too, if rank is held to imply Divine Favor it makes it to easy to establish a local cult of personality. Moreover the charismatic prophet or mystic or lover of the poor, or suchlike might be incompetent at the church functions where rank is more needed such as bureaucracy and administration and even politics.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I don't think Jesus is relevant. Sin is alienation from God; it's not clear that God can be alienated from God. Though I suppose you could take "My God, why have you forsaken me?" as evidence that Jesus had taken on not only humanity but sin.

That sounds a little like Byzantine trinitarian wranglings.

[Phantasm]

In my own setting, I have the following rank structure:

Rank 0 - Monk, Nun, Friar; the monk and nun are more sequestered, while Friars tend to the people without having an actual church. The Friars are the ones in the setting most likely to have a high Divine Favor.

Rank 1 - Minor Orders. An example would be the nuns who run the sick houses, or the temple prostitutes for the love goddess. They are also more likely than not to have a high Divine Favor.

Rank 2 - Deacon, Abbot/Abbess. The deacon helps with church administration, while the abbots and abbesses run the monasteries and convents. These are not as likely to have a high Divine Favor.

Rank 3 - Temple Priest; some tend to small villages, others do the day-to-day stuff in the city temples.

Rank 4 - High Priest (I believe this is the Roman Catholic "monsignor"), the priest that runs the larger temples in the cities with a few priests below him. Also used for the administrator of the church at the county level.

Rank 5 - Bishop. A political appointment, running the church in a duchy.

Rank 6 - Archbishop. Also a political appointment, a national head of the church.

Rank 7 - Cardinal. The international head of the church, chosen by a convocation of archbishops and is a lifetime appointment.

From the Bishop level through Cardinal, Divine Favor from the gods is almost non-existent. Also, from Bishop on up, the organization favors the entire pantheon, not individual gods.

Of course, this is subject to change. For the most part, though, I tend to use the rules from Pulling Rank for any PC cleric, representing how much support the church can give him rather than the number of subordinates.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

In my own setting, I have the following rank structure:

Rank 0 - Monk, Nun, Friar; the monk and nun are more sequestered, while Friars tend to the people without having an actual church. The Friars are the ones in the setting most likely to have a high Divine Favor.

Rank 1 - Minor Orders. An example would be the nuns who run the sick houses, or the temple prostitutes for the love goddess. They are also more likely than not to have a high Divine Favor.

Rank 2 - Deacon, Abbot/Abbess. The deacon helps with church administration, while the abbots and abbesses run the monasteries and convents. These are not as likely to have a high Divine Favor.

Rank 3 - Temple Priest; some tend to small villages, others do the day-to-day stuff in the city temples.

Rank 4 - High Priest (I believe this is the Roman Catholic "monsignor"), the priest that runs the larger temples in the cities with a few priests below him. Also used for the administrator of the church at the county level.

Rank 5 - Bishop. A political appointment, running the church in a duchy.

Rank 6 - Archbishop. Also a political appointment, a national head of the church.

Rank 7 - Cardinal. The international head of the church, chosen by a convocation of archbishops and is a lifetime appointment.

From the Bishop level through Cardinal, Divine Favor from the gods is almost non-existent. Also, from Bishop on up, the organization favors the entire pantheon, not individual gods.

Of course, this is subject to change. For the most part, though, I tend to use the rules from Pulling Rank for any PC cleric, representing how much support the church can give him rather than the number of subordinates.

I use a more flattened one.

1. Temporary monk or nun. Someone putting in a term rather then being a career cleric.

2. lay-deacon, handles the local church management. Deputy-parson(see below) robed deacon(professional church bureaucrat low-level).

3. Parson. Priest of local parish. Required to administer rites or deputize same(on voyages and military campaigns medics often act as deputy parsons). Prior-prioress(head of monestary or nunnery, sometimes acts as parson as well).

4. Bishop(representative at conclave), often high administrator as well

5. High-bishop(chair of conclave of bishops).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Then too, if rank is held to imply Divine Favor it makes it to easy to establish a local cult of personality. Moreover the charismatic prophet or mystic or lover of the poor, or suchlike might be incompetent at the church functions where rank is more needed such as bureaucracy and administration and even politics.

That was a big issue for the church. It wasn't just that you might need a priest even though you didn't have anyone with True Faith; it was that you might have someone with True Faith who was simply not qualified to be a priest.

Note that the Catholic definition of a sacrament includes the idea that it works regardless of the spiritual state of the person administering it. The theological formula is that God said that baptism, or consecration of the host, would work, and so it will work and you can rely on it. But the practical issue was that if you showed that the local priest was not in a state of grace, it would be really awkward if all the children he'd baptized became unbaptized, or all the couples he'd married became unmarried, or everyone who'd taken communion no longer had eaten the body of Christ; and even worse if a bishop was found to be a sinner, and all the priests he'd ordained were no longer priests. The church works because people aren't in constant anxiety about whether its operations really are holy.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Note that the Catholic definition of a sacrament includes the idea that it works regardless of the spiritual state of the person administering it. The theological formula is that God said that baptism, or consecration of the host, would work, and so it will work and you can rely on it.

Medieval midwifes were often trained to perform emergency baptisms, in case they found themselves with a dying newborn child and not enough time to send for a priest.

It was much preferable to have a priest do the baptism, but if the newborn had only 1d3 minutes left to live, then a lay baptism was assumed to be much more beneficial for the infant's soul than no baptism at all.

[Michael Cule]

A god who automatically gave Divine Favour to people who got promoted into and within the Church structure would be very different from the traditional idea of a god.

They would either be:

1) Very laid back about who gets access to Divine Favour. ("Yeah, yeah. Adelbert is a bit of a bastard but if the hierarchy wants him to be Patriarch of the North who am I to argue?")

or

2) So actively involved in the Church and the world that the mortals didn't get a look in. ("I don't care if he drools he is the Chosen One of Me!")

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I use a more flattened one.

1. Temporary monk or nun. Someone putting in a term rather then being a career cleric.

2. lay-deacon, handles the local church management. Deputy-parson(see below) robed deacon(professional church bureaucrat low-level).

3. Parson. Priest of local parish. Required to administer rites or deputize same(on voyages and military campaigns medics often act as deputy parsons). Prior-prioress(head of monestary or nunnery, sometimes acts as parson as well).

4. Bishop(representative at conclave), often high administrator as well

5. High-bishop(chair of conclave of bishops).

This is for a local sect. For the Imperial Catholic Church(not an established church, just called so because it has chapters all over known space), there is

1-4: up to the level of provincial bishop

5: planetary archbishop

6: Multiplanetary patriarch

7: Subsector Archpatriarch

8: Sector Archpatriarch

9: Imperial Archpatriarch


Local quirks naturally affect this. For instance the planatary archbishop of Terra has the bishoprics of Rome and of Constantinople alternately to reflect the reunion of the Greek and Latin traditions.

The Imperial Archpatriarch sits at Sylea, but Terra has a cachet from tradition.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Michael Cule

A god who automatically gave Divine Favour to people who got promoted into and within the Church structure would be very different from the traditional idea of a god.

They would either be:

1) Very laid back about who gets access to Divine Favour. ("Yeah, yeah. Adelbert is a bit of a bastard but if the hierarchy wants him to be Patriarch of the North who am I to argue?")

or

2) So actively involved in the Church and the world that the mortals didn't get a look in. ("I don't care if he drools he is the Chosen One of Me!")

I'd expect the usual would be more like any corporate VP for Human Resources - you mostly trust your subordinates to make good decisions, but you do have to sign off on the final document, and do get involved in the discussions for important positions or overrule them where they've clearly mixed up the paperwork or made an idiotic choice.