[DF] Difference between Hidden Lore and Occultisme?

[Maz]

As the topic say. Whats the difference between those two skills and when should I use one and when the other?

It seems to me that Hidden Lore is more about knowing specific facts whereas Occultism is about more general knowledge.

So if you got Hidden lore (Demons), you would use it to know about specific Demon names, Demon politics, Demon clans and so on, while Occultism (Demons) would tell you how to recognize a demon and know general demon strengths and weaknesses.


Sort of how Expert (Egypt) would give very specific info about Egypt persons and history. While History (Egypt) would give a much broader general knowledge.

[Ulzgoroth]

Hidden lore is hidden. By definition, it's not widely available. It also seems implied that it's actually valid information. Occultism (demons) on the other hand, is a valid real-world skill. It covers the open, 'common' knowledge about demons in occult circles and writings.

[Gurps Fan]

However, Mundane Background disadvantage forbids learning not only Hidden Lore but also Occultism (see p. B144).

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

However, Mundane Background disadvantage forbids learning not only Hidden Lore but also Occultism (see p. B144).

Yes, but that's not the contradiction that it might seem. Both of those skills are assumed to have actual application in a DF game (indeed, most games where magic exists), otherwise they would be equivalent to Hobbies.

[Stone Dog]

Just throwing thoughts out there...

Occultism is what everybody knows/assumes/has heard. It is rumor and superstition and mythology although sometimes those things are real. In settings where the supernatural exists it is broad generalizations. Magic can do such and such a thing, but not these limitations. Faeries don't like iron. Demons recoil when touched with blessed silver. Yadda yadda. You get to know about a lot of stuff and a lot of it is fairly useful.

In DF I'd say that anybody could learn Occultism.

Hidden Lore and Thaumatology are both specific, in depth and concentrated studies of a particular field. Hidden Lore (Demons) will get you a good deal more information than Occultism (Demonology). Not only the names of the Nine Lords of Hell, but details as to their powers and personalities, secrets and conspiracies. However, you get to know nothing about fairies or spirits.

In DF I'd say that only certain templates could learn Hidden Lore or Thaumatology.

I might even say that if you have Occultism (specialty) you could make a default roll for Hidden Lore (same specialty) at a hefty penalty, but if you just had Hidden Lore you wouldn't make a default roll for Occultism at all.

[transmetahuman]

I can't speak for how they're used in DF, so I'll just go off on a tangent. :) I've been thinking about Occultism and Hidden Lore in the context of a secret-magic contemporary fantasy setting... It seems to me that even characters who are in on the big secret won't get a secret decoder ring to determine which of the wildly conflicting bits of real world occultism are true. How would you model the situation where more of their information is coming from reliable sources than most people can get, but there's still uncertainty involved? Where, just because it's a real live wizard telling you what he knows about vampires, doesn't mean he's not getting some of it from half-remembered Buffy reruns.

I see Occultism in the setting as basically giving you the whole (mundane) scholarly range of info: "Well, some folklore about vampires says this, and some says that, and blah blah - but we scholar types don't really believe in any of this". Like GURPS Blood Types, it's a smorgasbord of conflicting stuff. Hidden Lore would be "Well, here's the real scoop". But I want a middle ground, a skill that is more likely to give you the real scoop, but a not-so-good roll might mix it up with false folklore.

Not sure if I'm expressing this well. I'm just envisioning these secret supernaturals being not entirely confident when telling fact from folklore, and wondering how to model it so Hidden Lore can still be useful. Some way to have a roll that might result in 1) You're confident this is true, and it is 2) You're confident this is true, but it's not 3) There's conflicting folklore, and these are some of the common riffs that might be relevant 4) You've got no idea.

[Stone Dog]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

I see Occultism in the setting as basically giving you the whole (mundane) scholarly range of info: "Well, some folklore about vampires says this, and some says that, and blah blah - but we scholar types don't really believe in any of this". Like GURPS Blood Types, it's a smorgasbord of conflicting stuff. Hidden Lore would be "Well, here's the real scoop". But I want a middle ground, a skill that is more likely to give you the real scoop, but a not-so-good roll might mix it up with false folklore.

More specifically, I'd go into Occultism (vampires) as "Everything you could learn about vampires using mundane resources" and if vampires actually exist it might also let you know what is myth and what is real (with a penalty if you don't have practical experience). Hidden Lore (Vampires) would let you know that there is an ancient order of vampire aristocrats in Paris called La Pavane.

Occultism (Faerie) would let you know all about the Unseelie Court and how to deal with dangerous fae. Hidden Lore (Faerie) would let you know that there is a noble sidhe named Garravin who is waging a secret war of genocide against humanity from the spirit world.

Occultism (Mythos) would let you know that the Necronomicon exists. Hidden Lore (Mythos) means that you have read it.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Hidden lore is hidden.

Too (un)clear things up- linguistically, the word occult means "to hide," and thus occult knowledge, or occultism, is "hidden knowledge."

For my 2c, Occultism would be the "field study" of the esoteric, what is taught about monsters, while Hidden Lore is what is taught by the monsters.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

Too (un)clear things up- linguistically, the word occult means "to hide," and thus occult knowledge, or occultism, is "hidden knowledge.

Etymology is not always the friend of understanding.

Occultism and the occult in modern usage pretty firmly refer to supernatural/paranormal matters, not hidden ones as such. (Occult as an adjective is still used to mean hidden in some contexts.)

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Maz

As the topic say. Whats the difference between those two skills and when should I use one and when the other?

It seems to me that Hidden Lore is more about knowing specific facts whereas Occultism is about more general knowledge.

So if you got Hidden lore (Demons), you would use it to know about specific Demon names, Demon politics, Demon clans and so on, while Occultism (Demons) would tell you how to recognize a demon and know general demon strengths and weaknesses.

Personally I don't care for Hidden Lore at all, since it's core definition isn't what the skill covers, but the incidental fact that in this particular world this information is Hidden. What about a setting where it's openly taught?

That aside, I think the relation between Occultism and whatever the actual skills ought to be called is like what Natural Philosophy vs Physics, Naturalist vs Biology or Pharmacy (Herbal) vs Physician are trying to get at, also somewhat unsuccessfully. It's the difference between broad, not terribly accurate but sometimes good enough to be useful information and detailed information that's either right, or you know what the gaps are, instead of having them filled with nonsense. In a campaign in which skills covering demonic names, politics etc were openly available, Occultism might not even exist anymore, having been replaced by the IQ defaults of those skills.