Striking vitals while on the ground

[varkarrus]

After you slam a person, so you're both on the ground, do you get any bonus to striking their vitals? Or do you have to grapple them first?

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by varkarrus

After you slam a person, so you're both on the ground, do you get any bonus to striking their vitals? Or do you have to grapple them first?

1) A successful Slam should not put the Slammer on the ground unless it was a Drop Kick, Flying Tackle, or other special type that specifically says so.

2) If you're both on the ground, you don't get any bonus to strike anything, and will in fact be at a -4 penalty to hit for being Prone unless you've bought it off with the Ground Fighting technique for the striking skill.

3) Grappling them first will not improve your chances to hit the Vitals (or anything else, unless you have the Neck Control Perk) except by preventing them from Retreating.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

3) Grappling them first will not improve your chances to hit the Vitals (or anything else, unless you have the Neck Control Perk) except by preventing them from Retreating.

Slight correction - -4 to DX from being grappled translates into -1 to Dodge and -2 to Parry.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Slight correction - -4 to DX from being grappled translates into -1 to Dodge and -2 to Parry.

Yeah, that too. Grappling is a pretty good prelude to beating somebody up, and I'm kind of surprised that it doesn't see more use in my group.

[varkarrus]

So in other words I can flying tackle someone, but not really get a bonus to ripping out the jugular, though they dodge less?

Wait, does the -5 roll mean that I have to roll 5 lower than normal to hit, or they get +5 PD?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by varkarrus

So in other words I can flying tackle someone, but not really get a bonus to ripping out the jugular, though they dodge less?

Wait, does the -5 roll mean that I have to roll 5 lower than normal to hit, or they get +5 PD?

Well, if you happen to be a four-legged predator, like the ones who do the Slam + Ripping out the Jugular in real life, you don't get any penalties for being prone, because you end up standing over the recently fallen victim.

In that case, you're using Combat At Different levels, which means that the opponent has a penalty to defend and the fact that he's prone adds another penalty. Finally, you have a +1 to hit the head or neck hit locations.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by varkarrus

So in other words I can flying tackle someone, but not really get a bonus to ripping out the jugular, though they dodge less?

Depends on what you consider a "bonus," but if you mean a direct addition to your chance of success on the roll to hit, then yeah.

Originally Posted by varkarrus

Wait, does the -5 roll mean that I have to roll 5 lower than normal to hit, or they get +5 PD?

What -5? If you're referring to the -4 for being Prone, then yes, you have to roll 4 lower than normal to hit. There is no PD in 4e GURPS.

That -4 to hit while prone is typically less significant than the -3 to defend while prone among moderately-skilled opponents, making going to the ground a somewhat nasty fight option in which everyone is likely to get badly injured among equals. Normally, without any special training, you only want to do it if your adversary does it first, or if a special case arises (such as needing to use a Flying Tackle to prevent an attempted escape). If your skill is significantly higher or you have trained in Ground Fighting it's a great way to go, however (assuming a 1-on-1 fight), which gives us the foundation of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, if you happen to be a four-legged predator, like the ones who do the Slam + Ripping out the Jugular in real life, you don't get any penalties for being prone, because you end up standing over the recently fallen victim.

And note GURPS has rules for that! It is called Pounce and is a variation on slam enabled if you have 4 or more legs.

[varkarrus]

Aww dang my character only has 2 legs.
but now I am really confused, sorry.
all these modifiers, man!

so enemy is on the ground, they are at -1 to dodge and -2 to parry, but I get a -4 to hit, and I -think- I get a -5 to hit the neck (it was mentioned in the rulebooks I believe), but a +1 to hit the neck and head, so it comes down to a -8 there...

so in the end it's easier to just bite the neck while standing in close combat?
Or just slam them and bite from a standing position?

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by varkarrus

so enemy is on the ground, they are at -1 to dodge and -2 to parry

That's for being Grappled, not being on the ground. Being on the ground is -4/-3. Grappling also gives -4 DX, and these stack, so being grappled on the ground will give you -8 to hit, -5 to Block or Parry, and -4 to Dodge.

Originally Posted by varkarrus

but I get a -4 to hit, and I -think- I get a -5 to hit the neck (it was mentioned in the rulebooks I believe), but a +1 to hit the neck and head, so it comes down to a -8 there...

If you're both on the ground and nobody has any special Techniques or Perks, you will be at a -9 to hit the neck (-4 for prone plus -5 for neck hit location).

Originally Posted by varkarrus

so in the end it's easier to just bite the neck while standing in close combat?

Everything is easier while standing, and (barring special anatomy) you can only bite in Close Combat, so yeah.

Originally Posted by varkarrus

Or just slam them and bite from a standing position?

If you Slam them successfully and knock them down while remaining on your feet, it will make it harder or impossible to bite them depending on how your GM is using Combat at Different Levels (4e Basic p 402), but it will make stomping the crap out of them with Stamp Kicks to the Torso, Neck, etc viable.