GURPS Rifts?

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Weird bad math, or something, sorry.

A single point of M.D.C can insta-kill all but the toughest (augmented) S.D.C persons. Non-augmented humans (no matter how tough) don't stand a chance. If the strongest a normal human can possibly be is ST 20 and HP can vary up to +30%, then that's 26 HP. Modern (S.D.C) body armor is no help, therefore minimum damage needs to be able to penetrate an assault vest with inserts and then do 6xHP. So it needs to do only 191 points of damage. I was off by 100 points.

I don't honestly think a non-augmented person could have 26 HP, but that's a minor issue.
I'd say it's overly dismissive to say that S.D.C. armour had no effect, as it goes as high as 280*, which will combined with 20 personal SDC will block 3 points of MDC. Even riot armour is 180, which means you can take 2 points of MDC. I'd probably peg those at around 35 and 15 DR respectively.

* Note that these numbers are actually taken from Heroes Unlimited; I don't actually own a copy of RIFTS.

Minimum damage for 6dx3 is only 18, that won't even potentially kill the average human. It'd need to be much higher than that.

Yes, but the odds of actually rolling 18 is only 1 in 46656. ANY higher is 21 and will force a death check in a normal person.
You have a 99.55% chance of doing 30 or more, which will force 2 death checks.
A 98.03% chance of doing 40 or more, forcing 3.
A 90.35% chance of doing 50 or more, forcing 4.
A 63.69% chance of doing 60 or more, which will auto-kill them.

So admittedly that's "only" a really really REALLY good chance of killing them, but that's usually going to be sufficient.

[Wicked Lurker]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

That's my point. I'm saying don't do that because it is silly. I am suggesting instead that Wicked Lurker not "keep the 'a shot of a modern energy weapon will kill a normal human, always'" and instead just use the GURPS stats without any attempt at mechanical conversion. Even 6dx3 is too much for a handgun, IMO, and will create bizarre interactions between weapons and the environment.

It's just a matter of scale - humans are completely powerless without psi, magic or technology in Rifts - I want to keep that. Energy weapons are dangerous to use in old (SDC) structures, I want to keep that as well.

A few TLs in the future I find it hard to imagine that, for a weapon intended to deliver lethal force, we do not succeed in achieving that goal in humans. The reason blasters are damage-leveled in the way they are in ultratech is probably because of gameability reasons, not necessarily "realism" (if you can actually call it that in a scifi setting).

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker

It's just a matter of scale - humans are completely powerless without psi, magic or technology in Rifts - I want to keep that. Energy weapons are dangerous to use in old (SDC) structures, I want to keep that as well.

A few TLs in the future I find it hard to imagine that, for a weapon intended to deliver lethal force, we do not succeed in achieving that goal in humans. The reason blasters are damage-leveled in the way they are in ultratech is probably because of gameability reasons, not necessarily "realism" (if you can actually call it that in a scifi setting).

For something that generates a broad effect, maybe, but a narrow cross-section beam weapon is just going to burn a hole in you and there's a functional limit to how much harm that will actually inflict.

Go ahead and make the guns and such scarily dangerous, but you really, really shouldn't bring over MDC. It's not even a good implementation of the idea its meant to convey in its own system, so why let it pollute a good system?

[Darekun]

Originally Posted by The Benj

So admittedly that's "only" a really really REALLY good chance of killing them, but that's usually going to be sufficient.

You could also do something like 6d+60. That's low variability, though, while 1D4 MD is high variability.

Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker

The reason blasters are damage-leveled in the way they are in ultratech is probably because of gameability reasons, not necessarily "realism" (if you can actually call it that in a scifi setting).

Indeed, the weapons in UT have been assigned armor divisors and had their damage scaled down for gameability reasons, and IIRC emulating things like Star Wars was a goal.

Originally Posted by The Benj

For something that generates a broad effect, maybe, but a narrow cross-section beam weapon is just going to burn a hole in you and there's a functional limit to how much harm that will actually inflict.

Uh, that would only apply if you're assuming things like pulsing a laser, which is specifically to increase penetration at the cost of raw damage. A true beam laser at those energies hitting a human would probably be steam-explosion time, even if it is a needle-thin beam. (Pulsing may still be a good idea to penetrate vehicular armor, but that comes back to the ablative-armor thing.)

Originally Posted by The Benj

It's not even a good implementation of the idea its meant to convey in its own system, so why let it pollute a good system?

While I've always assumed the intent was C-scale damage, I just re-read the Mega-Damage & MDC section in the Rifts book, and it might've been meant to convey a bit of the subtractive-armor nature in an ablative-armor framework.

…Wow.

…Um.

…Well, what it did was something completely different; it ended up being a sort of WhatMeasureIsANonMDC, which makes the inclusion of non-MDC classes unfortunate, but can still serve to add a layer of gonzo to the proceedings.

I don't think anyone's trying to directly port it, though; that would involve Cosmic or something.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by The Benj

I don't honestly think a non-augmented person could have 26 HP, but that's a minor issue.

Caveat: By RAW without any normalization.

A few TLs in the future I find it hard to imagine that, for a weapon intended to deliver lethal force, we do not succeed in achieving that goal in humans. The reason blasters are damage-leveled in the way they are in ultratech is probably because of gameability reasons, not necessarily "realism" (if you can actually call it that in a scifi setting).

Weapons throughout history have succeeded in delivering lethal force.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Mmm.... heat propagates at a certain rate. It's just not fast enough to boil ALL the blood in your body without the laser looking like something dramatically different than what we think of when we say "laser."

It's like blackening catfish. The stuff is practically still cooking when it goes on your plate.

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Caveat: By RAW without any normalization.

I don't think it's a very useful premise, as without any kind of rational normalisation you can (through Physical skill choice and good rolls) get over 100 SDC in Palladium. I'd forgot how tough Wrestling made you.

*shrug*

[Wicked Lurker]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Weapons throughout history have succeeded in delivering lethal force.

Weapons (intended to be lethal) got more efficient throughout the ages in fulfilling that premise is my point - you don't agree?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Wicked Lurker

Weapons (intended to be lethal) got more efficient throughout the ages in fulfilling that premise is my point - you don't agree?

Yes, and no. The modern development of battle-rifles has concentrated on increasing accuracy, range, and ammunition capacity per soldier than on lethality. A modern 5.56mm assault rifle is in many ways less lethal than a civil war musket.