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Old 11-23-2017, 05:31 AM   #1
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
Default Quick question on technical grappling.

I think I know how this works.

Under the paragraph for control points, it states that even a cp roll of 0 on a grapple attack and a grabbing parry is still a grip on the opponent.

but then in the sweat and armor paragraph it says that a roll of -cp in not a grip.

my intuition says that it prrrooobbbabbblllyyy does. Hence grabbing parry at low is st or trained st is pretty much worthless. Eg 1d-4 cp won't score much if ever.

but if it's at least a "grip" allowing lots of stuff like arm locks, throws, etc.

But i dont know for sure.

Could someone clarify for me?
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:38 AM   #2
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Quick question on technical grappling.

My take on it was that you have a "grip" even at 0 CP. It's not necessary to have positive CP (which would be a natural assumption and hence is worth pointing out in the rules).

If the target has Control Resistance (thanks to being naked, oiled, etc), that penalty reduces your CP roll, and can reduce it even below 0. If CP goes negative because of Control Resistance, you don't have a "grip" (either you lost the one you had, or didn't get one in the first place).

It's not entirely clear to me whether you can roll CP < 0 (say, with a Thrust damage of 1d-2, you might roll a 1-2 = -1; this can only come up with grapplers of ST <= 10). In Basic damage, that's treated as a 0 -- you don't heal people by hitting them poorly and reducing their damage taken. I'm not sure if TG is meant to keep that "min damage 0" rule for CP, or whether it's possible to roll poor CP for some attempt to increase it, but instead reduce your total, possibly losing your grip when it falls below 0. (If so, grapplers at ST 10 or less have an extra threshold of disadvantage beyond just the lower CP generation rate. So I've been assuming only Control Resistance can take a base roll into the negative range.)
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:59 AM   #3
Tomsdad
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
Default Re: Quick question on technical grappling.

Yep I agree

A successful grappling attack or Grabbing Parry (p. 42)
achieves a grip on your opponent, even if you roll 0 CP.

TGpg5


A 0 CP grip is basically maintaining contact but can't really be leveraged in anyway to impact the target (well beyond having established a grapple which can be a prerequisite for some things), as well as being pretty easy to break free of if not capitalised on or added to quickly

Thing is if you don't apply the 0 minimum one handed grapples and parrying grapples can often end in no grapple even if successful (were as I think them more likely ending in 0 CP grapple more than two handed grapples is fine)

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-23-2017 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:24 AM   #4
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Default Re: Quick question on technical grappling.

That was my assumption.

I ran it through the motions. And if you do the harsh rules to grabbing parry so you could judo throw, you'd have to have a decently large amount of st, or no Cp penalties
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:57 AM   #5
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Quick question on technical grappling.

Folks mostly have the right of this, with differences being well within ďyour table your rulesĒ territory.

You can still maintain a Grip on somebody with no control points, that would be something like having a loose grip on stretchy clothing. Or just barely holding hands, without working any joints or applying any restriction. You can still do grappling techniques from this position, as well as something like if someone else grabs you, you donít have any control on them, but nearly every self-defense techniques that Iíve ever learned starts from this position.

As far as attacking in the absence of control resistance, I would treat the minimum grab as zero. It is theoretically possible to attempt a move and wind up with a worse grip than what you started, but in a game situation thatís just mean. A successful attack should at worst have no result, and it would be better if something good happened as a result of that success. Thatís the difference between a game, and a reality simulator.

In the presence of control resistance, I would allow the grapple to get worse with a negative control point roll. Somebody else pay points for that privilege, and that is the result of those points being spent.
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:25 AM   #6
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Quick question on technical grappling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
...

In the presence of control resistance, I would allow the grapple to get worse with a negative control point roll. Somebody else pay points for that privilege, and that is the result of those points being spent.
I like the way this can game out at times.

Sometimes it can be a real dilemma when you have grappled someone with lots of CR* weather to try and go for more and risk losing some overall, (especially when you likely not have many to begin with). Or just try and leverage what you have to get the end result you going for despite not having as many as you'd like.



*I have to admit when I first got TG to test out the CR rules I ran a Turkish Oil wrestling match!

Last edited by Tomsdad; 11-24-2017 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 11-23-2017, 06:55 PM   #7
Jaware
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Default Re: Quick question on technical grappling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Folks mostly have the right of this, with differences being well within ďyour table your rulesĒ territory.

You can still maintain a Grip on somebody with no control points, that would be something like having a loose grip on stretchy clothing. Or just barely holding hands, without working any joints or applying any restriction. You can still do grappling techniques from this position, as well as something like if someone else grabs you, you donít have any control on them, but nearly every self-defense techniques that Iíve ever learned starts from this position.

As far as attacking in the absence of control resistance, I would treat the minimum grab as zero. It is theoretically possible to attempt a move and wind up with a worse grip than what you started, but in a game situation thatís just mean. A successful attack should at worst have no result, and it would be better if something good happened as a result of that success. Thatís the difference between a game, and a reality simulator.

In the presence of control resistance, I would allow the grapple to get worse with a negative control point roll. Somebody else pay points for that privilege, and that is the result of those points being spent.
That makes perfect sense to me.

I have one other, grappling related question if your willing to enlighten me.

the change posistion technique.

could you give me a simple example or two of the first two bullets. (The spin in place, and the change relative facing)

and could you also explain the establish a weight advantage? I can't seem to figure out the effects of having a weight advantage other than limbs counting for stability and valid grapples as well.
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