12-16-2018, 03:45 AM | #91 |
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Re: Defensive Auras
DR stops bullets, it would be probably be worth a limitation to have it deflect them, as Luke Cage can tell you. You could also say that something that misses you because of your Obscure is scattered instead of going straight...
If you mostly ignore what happens to bullets that miss nornally, you could ignore it for those deflected by this ability and just describe them flying in different directions. Oh... btw... I'm not even convinced by adding Area to Melee attack, I'd probably just say no to a player that came with such an idea. But if I wanted to consider it, for starters, adding Area to a Melee attack, in no way makes it a ranged one, you still need to hit in melee for it to anything, and then you're most likely in the AoE and affected by it So, mook punches you? He is knocked back along with you and everyone in 2y. He hits you with a baseball bat (or just another unnamed weapon that's just a +1 or something to his damage) same thing, except some mooks will lose their weapons and pull out new ones, others will have them unready and lose a turn, the fat one with the sledgehammer just stubles a bit and keeps swinging... But as I said, I would just say no to the ability to begin with, too much hassle for very little gain. |
12-16-2018, 09:59 AM | #92 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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http://www.warehouse23.com/media/SJG37-0133_preview.pdf page 11 Tricky Shooting: Ranged Disarms talks about non-damaging gunshots creating a ST check to avoid dropping something you are holding, and I'm pretty sure that Innate Attack is as hard to avoid as a gun unless you take limitations like "Blockable" or "Parryable" on it. Melee Attack normally has those inherently but I get the impression that Aura may change that and the damage can't be defended against... which does make me wonder if you could take Blockable/Parryable on Aura. The weird things about Ranged Disarms is that they're done with bullets, which normally cause some level (small/normal/large/verylarge) of Piercing damage, and I don't think Piercing normally can do any kind of Knockback unless you take "Double Knockback" which gives it a minor ability to do so akin to Cutting or Impaling I think? I can't help but wonder if some bullets ought to have that (in the Wonder Woman film, blocking hundreds of bullets with her shield as she walked forward seemed to visibly slow her down!) and if the capability to cause people to lose their grip on items when you shoot those items should be linked to the knockback those attacks would cause. |
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12-17-2018, 07:18 AM | #93 |
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Re: Defensive Auras
Actually, thinking of how Aura works offensively when you hit someone that's wearing clothes, I'm tempted to say that the fact that someone strikes an Aura with bare hands or with a C weapon makes no difference. Longer weapons would prevent the aura from damaging you, and damage to the weapon would be ignored more or less like you ignore the fact that if you punch someone wearing clothes, the damage from the aura is applied to the person and not the clothes (ofc any DR actually worn, would reduce this damage)
And this is just the basic Innate Attack with Aura and no other modifier, I don't really want to think about all the possible variations, but some would probably just not work. |
12-17-2018, 07:41 AM | #94 | ||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Everything else here has been an exercise to justify "game world" effects that could result from such an ability. IMO, if you want those effect, they are better taken as other advantages. You could try to price out what the effective enhancement would be worth as well. Quote:
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12-17-2018, 08:49 AM | #95 | |||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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You keep trying to write up a bullet a character when in truth if you were to represent it with a write up, it would be just an innate attack. The bullet would be nothing more than a side effect left behind as the aftermath of the attack. To keep all innate attacks "fair" relative to each other, why is the bullet stopped why the energy attacks pass through the (10d cr area)? The idea of "side effects" is that they are either minor effects or balanced by a combination of benefits and drawbacks. Quote:
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There are a number of game mechanics that don't hold up to the real world: damage stopping at exactly max range, areas being crisp areas that do the same amount of damage evenly, etc. The game isn't intended to simulate real life. It's intended to be a playable game. Quote:
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Uncontrollable lets the GM control it when you stress out. Where it goes after people, it will go after foes first. It doesn't mean it will do it in ways that benefit you (murder charges? bad target choice?), at times that are good for you, or that you can even count it on it going after someone at all (GM whim). Quote:
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12-17-2018, 08:57 AM | #96 | |
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Innate Attacks would need to fire off once per second. There wouldn't be a desirable way to normalize the effect for while they are inside the area. |
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12-17-2018, 11:10 AM | #97 | ||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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Realistically even a thin t-shirt or pair of shorts could perhaps at last 1 ablative DR against Burning Attack, with the downside that it is more flammable than your skin and potentially more dangerous than a spark burning you immediately and then snuffing out, which could let it work out to 0 cost. Quote:
affects the weapon" Quote:
The way to determine HP for objects based on their mass is given in Campaigns. Quote:
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Do we expect that fire elementals can just walk across wooden bridges without damaging them? Not doing that would likely be the "Selective Effect" enhancement from Powers 105, or could also be Fire-Only DR with Force Field which protects your clothing against your aura. If you have neither of these, and didn't want to use a Stunt (Temporary Enhancement to gain Selectivity, Using Abilities at Default to get DR) to get them, another option would be using Power Parry against your own aura to counteract your aura's attacks against things you don't want it to damage. You can only do 1 Power Defense per turn though, so that would only allow protecting one thing. Quote:
This could be 0-point since the benefit of weighing victims down could counteract the drawback of being movable by enemies. This might be represented as Binding with a Link+10% to "Create" of appropriate matter, so "energy web which can't be knocked back" might be the default. Innate Attack + Create would make sense if you fired bullets out of thin air, just not in the case where Innate Attack is a gun which relies on firing already-existing matter. Quote:
So weirdly, a sumo can knock you back further if he Stop Hits you with a Shove as you run 10 yards toward him (+5 to damage) than he could if he shoved you from a resting position. MA106's "Charging Foes" doesn't negate the Stop Thrust bonus, but clarifies that knockback is not a guaranteed end to moving attack:
The spirit of this is "knockback relocates position but it doesn't stop movement" so if you've only moved half your range that turn and the sumo shoves you back, you can still keep going and close with him again during that same second. B62 "Innate Attacks are treated as ranged attacks unless given the Melee Attack limitation; then they’re considered melee weapons." does not exclude Auras, so the "your weapon is in the way" rules in the following paragraph may also apply, though I could see a GM not allowing a contest of ST unless an attack was ST-based. I don't think it should apply at all to weapons not capable of being ST-based. If you wanted to calculate "effective ST" based on damage, you could low-ball that by matching it up with the Swing column instead of the Thrust. Quote:
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B62 "Attacks that depend on touch or on skin contact use Blood Agent (p. 102) or Contact Agent, plus one of Aura (p. 102) or Melee Attack (p. 112)." Innate Attack does not dwell upon how Knockback works, or how Aura works, readers are meant to consult other areas of the book for those mechanics. Quote:
Right, your aura hitting stuff is a free action. Some free actions can only be done on your own turn, or even only at the start of your own turn, or once per turn, but aura doesn't specify any limitations like that. Last edited by Plane; 12-17-2018 at 11:25 AM. |
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12-17-2018, 12:16 PM | #98 | ||||||||||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Re: Defensive Auras
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I declare my action as shooting you. I roll to hit. If I succeed, you can optionally defend. Not that I had to succeed in hitting you prior the defense option, and prior to the effects of the attack being resolved. Game world effects: A bullet or laser pierces your body, doing damage. The "bullet" is a game world effect. The game mechanic was me using a ranged attack. It could have been energy, bullets, thrown rocks, or whatever. The rules are the same regardless. Quote:
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Besides, being able to negate ranged and physical attacks far outweighs the need to put Neosporin on the wound. Quote:
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You can fire ice, stone, or any other material out of your fingers with just Innate Attack, but you're suggesting bullets *need* to be purchased differently? That's certainly something that's just up to the individual GM. Quote:
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Game mechanics: Wait, declares a response to something later in that turn. Opponent declares an action. Uses wait to interrupt and finish your prior action. Quote:
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Obviously Aura doesn't provide this defense as it takes effect after you're hit. Obviously area (Area/Cone, etc) enhancements don't provide this, as the "I go, you go" would normally prevent the intersection of attacks. Why should the combination of abilities give it? Your essential argument boils down to "because it fits how I see the ability working." Forcing it to have that combination of effects is certainly fair, but suggesting that the various enhancements you've already purchased does that isn't. The enhancements aren't written or priced to do the effect you want. <edit> Since this is rehashing a number of points let's put it another way why this looks like it's wrong. You buy Innate Attack 10d cr. This is an attack to shoot something. Sure it can be used as a power parry, but it's basically a simple attack. 50 points base. You add Aura and Melee (Melee being required) for +50% net enhancement. +25 points. Obviously this doesn't reduce the damage you take either. Now you add Area for another +50% and +25 points again. You now argue that this last 25 points gives you: - protection via an automagic power parry - which effectively is 10d or 35 points of DR - against any oncoming projectile. DR (force field +20%, physical projectiles only -40%) is worth ~ 140 points or 40% more than the power costs by itself. That's before you consider how effective it will be at keeping melee guys back so they can't ever land a punch. But wait! What if we limit this to "just knockback." (Which begs they question, why is a flaming aura providing less protection than a crushing aura for the same cost? Especially if a flaming aura has worse destructive side effects.) We run into problem one: what effect does knockback have on a bullet? Bullets don't really have a move value, can't be stunned, and for that matter don't really have significant weight on a per unit basis. Treating them as fast thrown objects produces odd dependencies (check the effective ST necessary for the range, vs the damage bullets do for their size). Your suggested house rule to treat them as 1 point of KB = 1 yard of reduced range? On a 10d attack that averages 35 dmg, it's not going to affect much bullet damage at all. Oddly, it would be total protection from knives, hatchets, and most short ranged thrown attacks, though. Fortunately, for another +20% (10 points), you can double the protection you get! With the costs, it should be fairly clear that the enhancements are giving far too much under this view relative to both what they normally grant and given the point value other things would cost. Last edited by naloth; 12-17-2018 at 03:00 PM. |
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12-18-2018, 11:59 AM | #99 | |||||||||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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If someone throws a rock, I can pick it up and throw it back at them, but I can't pick up a bullet and fire it back even if I had a gun because the casing and gunpowder is used up. These 'world' effects do effect the 'mechanics' of what you can do in combat. Quote:
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I mean technically Innate Attack is actually an advantage which gives the capability to attack, not the attack itself... though that too I'm sure has been used both ways. Quote:
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If your Piercing Attack doesn't leave bullets behind in wounds it causes, it lacks this benefit against opponents in exchange for being some unknockable energy fluctuation. Quote:
If you want to define an Innate Attack's projectile as air where it is essentially Permeable with the atmosphere , "No Signature" sounds appropriate. Dealing with air pockets penetrating the body is probably easier than dealing with lead fragments. Quote:
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Punch and Kick are listed as Melee Weapons on B271. If you want to make some overly technical argument that Shoves/Slams (or Knee Attack, Stomp Attack, Back Kick etc.) and other unarmed attacks don't also qualify as weapons simply because they aren't explicitly on that table, then we can talk about the knockback caused by thrust+crushing attacks which are explicitly there. Quote:
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AE changes Aura to "when it touches me" to "when it touches this perimeter around me". Non-teleporting projectiles will touch the perimeter before they touch the center. Quote:
Hitting things when they enter an area is how AE+Persistent or AE+Aura work. Knocking things back when they are hit is how Knockback works. Crossing intervening space is how non-Malediction / non-SAe Innate Attacks work. |
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12-18-2018, 11:59 AM | #100 | |||||||||
Join Date: Aug 2018
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Re: Defensive Auras
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The idea of opposing the gunshot momentum instead of the bullet mass. This is in line with your comment "Force is still mass time energy, and the amount of energy you're trying to redirect should play a role" Basically the idea that if you didn't want to treat Aura as making a free attack, you could INSTEAD house rule it functioning as a free Power Parry, if you didn't like how the RAW worked. The way you should actually resolve this RAW is since the bullet is automatically hit by the area effect, you would apply the 10d damage vs the DR and HP of the bullet, and from that damage in relation to the HP of the bullet, determine the knockback. B483 "Damage to Objects" less than 1/3 HP = halved effectiveness so halving the damage inflicted by a bullet that badly damage sounds about right. Quote:
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For comparison: if a super gnome zombie with 3ST/3HP and 100 DR is shambling towards me at 1yard/second, my 5d Burning Attack won't stop him, but I can easily knock him back faster than he can walk toward me by using a 1d Crushing Attack. That's just how the game mechanics work. Quote:
Even things without Basic Move (reflecting the idea of being able to move under their own volition) could be treated as having an "effective move". Something thrown or shot or carried around is similar to someone using Affliction: Flight (or using TK to carry) to impart a move to a thing not under that thing's control. It works more like "Sprinting" or "Enhanced Move" (in the sense that bullets only travel forward in a straight line). The end result of these are "Top Speed" which is not an actual advantage. We can calculate the speed of bullets via the "Bullet Travel" rules: (Range in yards)/250 seconds and a rifle projectile takes (Range in yards)/600 secondsIf Range is 500, a pistol round takes 2 seconds to get there, which is 250 yards per second. If Range is 1200 a rifle round takes 2 seconds to get there, which is 600 yards per second. Basically whatever the divisor is is the effective Top Speed of that projectile, which is the Movement Points it has dedicated only to forward movement as a Flyer. So unless you can inflict enough knockback (say, 150 points of crushing with Double Knockback to knock the a pistol round back 300 yards, or 350 points to a rifle round to knock it back 700) to make it require another second to get to you, the knockback won't make a difference. That's of course using a "back the way it came" interpretation to knockback, not the geometry nightmare of "directly away from the IA source" to apply source in ways other than 180 degrees, which isn't something I have the skills to deal with. Quote:
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*just now realizing the weirdness that Stomps/Tramples cause Knockback* Quote:
I believe you want to compare this to DR (Limited: Very Common: physical attacks (from any material substance) -20%; Force Field +20%, Reflection +100%) priced at 10 per level. Of course it's a little unclear as to whether water (like the Corrosive Attack water sword in Powers) or acid (other form of Corrosive) qualify as "material" or not. If your DR was "I have a shield of wind which knocks into things aimed at me" then it should stop acid/water but not lose DR in the process, which would require some kind of Cosmic enhancement. Another problem is Armor Divisors. Having an Armor Divisor on your attacks doesn't allow you to ignore Knockback. DR cares about damages of enemies' attacks while Knockback cares about enemies' HPs. "Reflection" also guarantees you'll knock the attack ALL the way back if you manage to stop it, whereas Knockback has no such guarantee. |
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aura of power, persistent |
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