Making Sense of All-Out Defense

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

If you're not immune against bullets and aren't "dodging" (aka GTFOing) the entire time, then it's bad roleplay.

For some people it's easier to use your hands to move cover in front of yourself (like a shield) than it is to step behind the cover.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Regardless of what permutations of AoD folks consider to be realistic, I'd suggest that realistically Dodge is always the "defense of last resort."

This is because your body is almost always going to be behind your weapon or shield and Dodge is the one defense you can use if your weapon or shield is unready or knocked out of line.

So, rather than Dodge first, then Parry/Block if Dodge fails, you should have to commit your Block/Parry defense first, then use Dodge as your second line of defense if using AoD (Two Defenses).

I've been in fights where I went to dodge/evade, indeed started moving, and then realised it wasn't going to work and used an arm or hand to block/parry.

Rupert discussed this in his reply, too. It's not uncommon, and quick hands (and experience to know it's a possible requirement) mean you can intercept that blow faster than you can get your whole body out of the line of attack.

At a lacrosse training session decades ago, I turned around to see someone had thrown a ball at me and reflexively used the stick to catch it - I couldn't have dodged because it was so close when I saw it, so I'm sure someone proficient with weapons could also parry after realising a dodge wouldn't work.

Also, remember the granularity of the game system. In most instances when I've been avoiding being hit, it's been a combination of dodging and parrying/blocking. Usually, just dodging or just parrying/blocking was done only against someone who lacked the skill to really pose a threat or to deliberately retain a certain position at the risk of being hit or hit partially. GURPS doesn't cover that combined move much, except perhaps as represented by the bonus to all out defence or feverish defence, but even then at the resolution of the game it doesn't delve into the nuance of how much you dodge or how much a block and a parry are very much alike at times.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

I think most people want to narrate combat roll by roll. It does help with focusing on the battle. But personally, I prefer to treat combat as fuzzy until observed. After all, even a relatively mundane fighter could attack twice and parry three times with the same weapon across their entire front arc (give or take some weapon choices). Yet that doesn't have to mean their weapon is darting about. And when it comes to retelling the battle later, there's no reason to explain it in those discrete steps. For instance, maybe one parry makes more sense to have occurred between the attacks.

There's a great Pyramid article (although I forget in what issue) that explores this. It starts out talking about how radio broadcasts of baseball games used to work - the person doing the broadcast wasn't actually watching the game, but was instead being sent basic information by those that were (basically just who is at bat, and what the result after each pitch was - strike, ball, foul, batter is now on second base, batter is now out, etc) and had to create an entertaining narrative based on that raw data. Treating what happens at the table similarly can be an interesting option.

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

I think I have sent a reply...but the 'sent messages' folder is empty, so I don't know if it really worked.

There's a checkbox labeled "Save a copy of this message in your Sent Items folder." at the bottom of the screen when sending a PM (when sending a Reply, you have to hit "Go Advanced" to see it) that is by default unchecked; checking it on will make the PM show up in your Sent Items folder (and count against your mailbox limit), but otherwise it won't show up there.

Originally Posted by Farmer

Also, remember the granularity of the game system. In most instances when I've been avoiding being hit, it's been a combination of dodging and parrying/blocking. Usually, just dodging or just parrying/blocking was done only against someone who lacked the skill to really pose a threat or to deliberately retain a certain position at the risk of being hit or hit partially. GURPS doesn't cover that combined move much, except perhaps as represented by the bonus to all out defence or feverish defence, but even then at the resolution of the game it doesn't delve into the nuance of how much you dodge or how much a block and a parry are very much alike at times.

Before I discovered GURPS and was trying to design my own system (upon finding GURPS, I decided it basically did everything I was trying to do, and did it better, so I went with it instead), I believe I had defenses as Block (put something in the way of the attack), Parry (deflect the attack), and Dodge (get out of the way of the attack). You could combine these - I know I at least allowed for a Dodge-Parry (deflect the attack while getting out of the way), and I think Dodge-Block (put something in the way of the attack while getting out of the way) was also an option (no Block-Parry, but in theory that could be doable - essentially a Block with a degree of deflection, making it intermediary in both difficulty and how much damage the interposed object suffers between Block and Parry). It's been a long time, but I think the way I had these function was that your effective skill was based on a weighted average of the skill for the weapon you were using and the skill for the weapon your opponent was using (although Dodges I think pretty much just used your skill with the opponent's weapon, although Dexterity may have factored in more favorably than when Blocking or Parrying); your defense generally just downgraded the amount of injury an attack caused, but you could get it low enough to negate the attack outright (or get it low enough that it bounced off your armor). Blocks were the easiest but damaged your weapon in the process, Parries were harder and damaged your weapon markedly less, and Dodges were the hardest but didn't need anything to put in the way; combination defenses were basically intermediate in difficulty and effect between the combined options.

When I found GURPS, I decided Retreating Parry basically did what I was trying to get at with the Dodge-Parry. If that's not enough, an option might be to allow using the Double Defense option on a normal Active Defense, without needing to have used All Out Defense, but you defend at -2. This is roughly consistent with the penalty for multitasking (although there it's usually -2 to skill, which would correspond with -1 to defense), which is basically what you're doing - "I'll try to Dodge out of the way, but if that doesn't look like it's working, I'll deflect the attack with a Parry." This arguably works best if you revamp All Out Defense to simply be a +2 to all defenses (so for any given defense, you can choose between taking the +2 or trading it in to be able to do two defenses).


In terms of making sense of this, if not making use of the "radio baseball option" above (which I understand - having each choice and roll have a concrete effect can certainly help to feel more involved with what's going on), is to say the character intends to get out of the way (Dodge) but is prepared to knock the foe's weapon aside with his/her own (Parry) if it looks like the Dodge won't work - and the character is staying on the defensive (not getting a normal action) to do this (or is suffering a penalty for multitasking, if you allow for Double Defense at -2, as I suggested above). If the character having perfect knowledge of whether their initial defense works breaks your sense of disbelief, in a previous thread I suggested a mechanic by which a character can end up "wasting" a defense against even a missed attack, because fighters aren't omniscient (and thus may actually Parry an attack that would have missed anyway). For that, you have the player declare and roll a defense even against a miss; then double the defender's MoS (treat MoS 0 as 0.5, thus boosted to 1 when doubled; on a Failure, double the MoF, and make it negative), then add the attacker's MoF; if the result is 5 or more, the player has the option to not do the defense after all (the idea is that with such a "Margin of Victory," the character correctly recognizes that the attack won't hit, and thus has a choice between defending and not). In this case (the attack was a hit, but the first defense negated it), you could do the same, but combine the defender's MoS from each defense to determine if they recognize that they don't need to do the secondary defense.

As an example, let's say we've got a lone swordsman facing off against two bandits. He's managed to back himself into a corner so they have no choice but to attack him from the front, but this also means he can't Retreat. He's got help coming shortly, so he decides to play it safe, using All Out Defense (Double). The first attacks; he'd rather not use up his Parry quite yet, in case he needs it against the second, so he attempts to Dodge; he succeeds by 4. But the GM is using the above rule that he doesn't automatically know for certain if the Dodge was successful, so the player needs to roll for Parry. Because he had MoS 4 (doubled to 8), above, that means he actually only uses up a Parry if he fails the roll by 2 or more (MoF 2, doubled to -4, for a total of 4 - below the minimum of 5 to be able to avoid using up the Parry).

[RyanW]

I'm personally a fan of declaring defenses prior to revealing hit/miss, and for AOD (Double) I would instinctively think declaring both defenses would be the way to go.

To compensate, I might add an additional benefit to AOD (Double) of halving the penalty for multiple parries.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by RyanW

I'm personally a fan of declaring defenses prior to revealing hit/miss, and for AOD (Double) I would instinctively think declaring both defenses would be the way to go.

To compensate, I might add an additional benefit to AOD (Double) of halving the penalty for multiple parries.

I'd just not charge the penalty on the second defence if it turned out that it wasn't needed.

I'm undoubtedly biased by my game experiences, but I don't think Parry and Block need to be weakened. Dodge might, starting with the -1 per additional attack found in Martial Arts.

[Lovewyrm]

Rounds are just a second long.
Declaring defenses beforehand under ranged fire is just normal.
In fact, I'd say that the moment a character knows of ranged danger, they're 'actively defending' against it.
Yeah, that's not '100% by the GURPS books words' but GURPS seems to put good versimilitude before the rules.


"Dodge is normally the only active defense you can take against firearms.This does not mean you can actually dodge bullets!
A dodge against this kind of attack represents an attempt not to be where you think your opponent will shoot, by weaving or ducking at the right moment."

Yeah, well, where do you think the shooter intends (intends! They can miss despite intentions!) to shoot? Especially after a few rounds hitting nearby?
Your character?
So why aren't you always 'on the dodge'? You are, unless you have circumstances or abilities that mess with that.

That's why some people invent an inversion of defense declaration, because they instinctively know that regular folk would try to get out of harms way.
Actively. Before a potential hit registers.

That's good roleplaying, and can be done with the RAW too.
You are actively trying to get to safety.

This can even be done offensively, think a husband throwing a sword to his wives lover "Defend yourself!".
But this is about defense.

You are actively defending unless you do nothing for some reason.
But in that case, if you're about to get hit and 'dodge'?
Why dodge? Gotten over your depression in this second?
Well then, now skeedaddle!

If running around wasn't an active defense against ranged attacks?
Then why did the GURPS gods create the range and speed table with maluses for ranged attackers?
Checkmate, atheists (joking)

But for serious, an active defense against getting shot is moving around quickly.
So, if you are already on the dodge, so to speak.
Then the 'active defense of dodge' you get on top of it, can just be your lizard brain or something else giving you an edge.
"I'm dodging where I think the bullet will land. Which is myself! So I'm moving all the time!"

And then, once you dove behind a sturdy tree in your hex, because you behaved reasonably. You can now benefit from the RAW completely, since now you can just counter fire, for example.
You're prone, all you can do is roll. So you either roll behind the tree (or elsewhere) to reload.
Or, you peek out, get a potential hit, but you fidgeted a little, just enough to miss it.
Just see it more as a luck roll than a defense roll and treat your entire behavior as an active defense against boolets and it's all golden.
No need to change anything but how the defense is seen.

What about a bunker rush? Where you have no other choice but to run into enemy fire?
Well, you're speeding around, which gives a malus (up to a point) but in this case, you're both praying that the gunner is shooting at somewhere else.
Or, you can see him training on you and you duck or weave for a second on a potential hit.
You're doing it all the time, just in the about to hit situation you're being tested by fate (and your skill).

And all out defenses are related to this.
You are Combnan, the Barberian, and you are feared for ruining every hairdo you touch.
You somehow got yourself employed at a film studio, but the lead actress with the lush hair has evaded you so far.
Enough is enough, today you are kicking her door in and giving her the hairdo of her lifetime.

The moment you kick in the door, and she sees you.
She's on an all out defense. You're not even in reach. But her body is going into defensive overdrive, foregoing anything but the back-of-the-neck-hair prickling fizz of hyperdetermined flight.

She waits for a second or two, coiling up internally, and then darts past you, whipped into a bolt of lightning by a flood of chemicals that all are hellbent on not being barbered by you.
You fail to grab her. She's running off.

You didn't even take a swing at her, but she was in flight mode, cause that's how she is.
She actively defended against you from the moment she saw you, but only when you reached for her, fate, under the rule of both of your skills, was testing her.

That's how I see the GURPS defense rules.
You roleplay first, and then when all of that is done, the mechanics drop in.
Especially for ranged combat.

Imagine the actress seeing you through a slit of the trailer and she hid.
Is that not an active defense against you?
No, not by the book as written. But, by roleplay and it makes 100% sense that that was an active defense against the threat of ruined hair.

I therefore suggest that transferring this mindset to GURPS proper, most (if not all) problems with the defense system disappear.
Especially considering that it's all a second each.

Here some examples of roleplay that still deal with the sore point directly, vs RAW.
"My faith is my shield. I stand strong in the hail of bullets."
"Okay but this bullet is about to hit you. Are you going to take your active defense?"
"Yes...."
"You make it, but we'll be talking about your true faith after this."
"Fair."

"I have been caught in this ambush, and the first shots missed. I will now cast deflect missiles to shield myself."
"Aren't you going to at least try to flee?"
"There is no cover I consider worthwhile, and we are adventurers after all, aren't we?"
"Good point."
"I concentrate"
"Alright, enemy turn, he's about to hit you."
"I flinch and dodge. But concentrate again on my turn."
"Alright, enemy turn, he's about to hit you again."
"I once again flinch, I guess my nerves are just too focused on staying alive. I start running."
"Enemy turn, he aims."
"I keep running, sprinting if I can"
"He keeps aiming."
"I still run, is there really nothing I can use for cover."
(marker on battlemat squeaking)
"You notice a small rock formation ahead. The enemy aims once more."
"I dash there with maximum effort and dive behind the cover! (alll out defense + 1FP or something!"
"You make it just in time, you dive behind the rocks, knocking your wind out momentarily. The bullet cracks against the stone and ricochets into the dirt harmlessly."
"I start concentrating..."

"I'm a daredevil BAMF and I casually walk toward the enemy with my pistol drawn, returning fire"
"So cool! ...but the enemy is about to hit you."
"I tilt my head slightly (this is my badass dodge)"
"You make it!"
"I shoot."
"You hit him square in the chest, and he recoils!"
"I shoot three more time"
"You blast the thug like the BA you are, several big, dust, leather shreds and gore spraying hits make him stumble backwards through the window behind him. He falls ...and smashes into a car below. You can hear the alarms wailing all the way up here!"

No problems here...to me.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Lovewyrm

If running around wasn't an active defense against ranged attacks?

Then why did the GURPS gods create the range and speed table with maluses for ranged attackers?
Checkmate, atheists (joking)

That's sort of the point, isn't it. You can run and move and generate negatives to ranged attacks without having to "actively defend" (i.e. dodge). If you run zig-zag or across the line of the shot, then the speed and range table should come into it when someone shoots you.

It then comes down to game mechanics. If you were "forced" to dodge every turn without knowing whether or not you were going to be hit, there's a chance you could crit fail and the game mechanics appear to have at least considered this and come to the conclusion, "nope, we're not going to make you risk that if they weren't going to hit you".

It's about overall balance, not isolated, specific accuracy as a real-world simulation (which the game isn't). Overall, do people hit often enough? If it's within the intended range, that's the point of the mechanics.

[Varyon]

As it regards Dodging fast ranged attacks (slow ones you can indeed get out of the way of the incoming projectile), I like the idea of using Douglas Cole's "On Target" article - which makes Aim into an action that calls for a roll - and then letting the character Dodge against that Aim - but once the foe has "locked on" (successfully made an Aim, with your Dodge failing), you can't actually Dodge anymore and have to use Evasive Movement (see below) on your turn instead. An Attack that isn't preceded by an Aim can be Dodged normally (in either case, you're getting out of the way when you see the enemy pointing the weapon at you).

For Evasive Movement, this can be combined with any other maneuver that allows an Active Defense and at least a Step. You must move at least half of the linear measurement for your SM (so 1 yard for SM+0, 2.5 yards for SM+2, etc); if using a hex grid, round this down, but you must move a minimum of 1 hex (so even an SM-6 fairy can't just stay in place). Most actions are at -2, with the exception of Active Defenses, which are unpenalized (Block and Parry should probably be penalized, but they suffer enough as-is; a Harsh Realism option of -1 to each could work, however), ranged attacks, which suffer the worse of -2 and half the Bulk of the weapon, and Acrobatics, which is unpenalized - in fact, if you use Acrobatics on your turn, your movement is automatically considered Evasive Movement, and Dodge is considered Acrobatic (at -2 if you failed the Acrobatics roll, +2 if you succeeded). Evasive Movement is most often used in conjunction with All Out Defense (Improved Dodge). When using it, you roll against Dodge; a Failure has no further effect, but a Success means all attacks against you until your next turn suffer a penalty equal to -2xMoS (treat MoS 0 as MoS 0.5, thus imposing a -1 penalty to enemy attacks). Against a foe who has successfully Aimed against you, this reduces the bonus they get from that Aim - and if the penalty equals or exceeds said bonus, you've shaken off their Aim and they'll have to start over to reacquire. Note this penalty applies even to attacks of which you are unaware.

If a foe has successfully Aimed against you with an Aim, the foe may attempt a Parry based on their skill with that weapon, but (optionally) suffering a penalty equal to half its Bulk (or, rather, their skill suffers a penalty equal to Bulk, and you base defense off that modified skill). On a Success, double the foe's MoS (MoS 0 is MoS 0.5, as above) and add it to the above penalty to determine the actual penalty, but this cannot result in a net bonus.

... that's a rough draft, anyway.

[Lovewyrm]

I still consider the standard ranged attack dodging rules pretty much perfect, but also a bit mind hijacking, since again, I stand 100% behind the fact that the dodge you get for a ranged attack is more like a fate roll, in practicality that tests an already happening active defense, like running away.

An example to illustrate this.
You're in a narrow hallway, you can only comfortably go forward or backwards.
There is a sign and high visibility painting on the floor, the painting surrounds a slit.
The sign says: A trained goblin will fire a broad, flat laser beam every 5 second through this slit in the ground, it covers the entire width of the floor, it never runs out of ammo and the goblin is eternal and cannot be removed from his task.

What is the most logical action to defend against this?
Wait and jump/dash over the slit during downtime?

Or going by RAW, where the only active defense against a ranged attack that one is aware of and knows where it's coming from and/or going to and:
Standing on top of the slit, looking down it, and dodging if it's about to hit?

This example should easily outline the strange situations that come from regarding the dodge as the only means of active defense.

It's not, moving away is the most basic active defense against a ranged attack.

But, if you mess up the timing during your attempt to actively defend against this attack, by miscounting the seconds, and the beam is about to hit you.
Then you get a sort of, kind of, fate roll that tests your skill of doing the 'dodge' you already started, successfully.

Oh right, all out defense.
An all out defense in this case, from a 'behavior' standpoint would be, like a sprinter, getting into a position/body posture/muscle tension/mindset thing that focuses purely on getting past this laser attack.
Nothing else on the mind, nothing else but flight.

And thus you get a bonus on your entire plan, which of course is only necessary during a 'about to hit' situation.
Cause otherwise, again, moving away is simply the most basic active defense against a ranged attack.

You might have ended up miscounting the downtime of the laser, but because you're in all out defense mode, you might just have gotten past it anyway. Perhaps momentum. Perhaps microtiming, etc.