03-21-2012, 08:33 AM | #71 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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But even if you don't go that far, I don't see how much damage a closely monitored wizard can do. Have him do all of his work in a room with a giant stone block over his head which is dropped at the pull of a lever. Put like fifteen such levers around the room. He's going to have to have some mighty powerful magic to get out of that one. And I'm sure the controls would be individualized. It just seems really easy to keep them controlled once you have them. |
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03-21-2012, 11:48 AM | #72 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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03-21-2012, 12:19 PM | #73 | |||||
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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But, yes, we don't have Dmitri Ravenoff here quite yet. Quote:
How long does it take for someone to learn five spells? How many years? Let's say they have IQ 11 and Magery 1. They could be spending years getting to the point where they can reliably cast these spells. Training wizards and everything that entails looks a lot like a nuclear weapons program to me. It's possibly a higher percentage of GDP for your low-tech king to run such a program than it is for a modern state to run a nuclear weapons program. TL 1? That is incredibly expensive. It's still very expensive at TL 2 and 3. That all depends on exactly what spells you have access to, of course. Everyone's going to be trying to keep these things secret. I imagine someone getting hold of the wrong spell is the kind of thing you go to war over. I would like to come up with some various examples with civilizations based on different historical ones. Sumeria looks real different from Greece from Rome from China. In Sumer, depending on the numbers, they just wouldn't have had very many people with Magery. And they wouldn't have had the wealth to support very many of them, anyway, assuming the mages didn't raise the TL. Quote:
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Maybe you could have it where the monarch has always maintained control since their discovery. Say the guy who invented the spells couldn't himself cast them. Or maybe the king himself invented them. Maybe he received them as a gift from the gods. My point here is that I think it might be possible to come up with some convoluted series of events that happened just so in which we get this setting functioning in this way. I don't think it makes sense to have one in every thousand people be born with Magery 3, and to have open access to training, where anyone can go in and learn Enslave or Irradiate if they so please, if they can get someone to pay for their training. That way madness lies. Quote:
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03-21-2012, 12:22 PM | #74 |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
Hmm. I think you may have come up with a way to mobilize a good fraction of mages in a kingdom... against your example, ErhnamDJ. :)
I know if I were a mage and an empire hellbent on enslaving all mages in perpetuity was invading my kingdom (or hell, even located near enough to be known!), I would be plenty motivated to start tossing sticks into their wheel spokes. The mages of this opposing kingdom are not limited to one spell each, and they are cooperating together to blast your god-emperor to smithereens, and to dismantle his empire of servitude. Of course, since your premise was that all mages everywhere would be enslaved by the pharoah, I am assuming there are no groups of free mages around anymore? How about those 'free' aristocrat mages? Any of them feeling a golden chain around their throats? What if the pharoah decides to lump them with the slave-mages? After all, what guarantees does the pharoah have of their loyalty and unlike the slaves, these people would have the skills and contacts to fashion a coup instead of a slave revolt. What about normal artistocrats? Any of them worried that the pharoah is using his tame mind-reading mages to ferret out plots and corruption? In the end, who can the pharoah trust? I think enslaved mages might work as enchanters, but giving them a battlefield role might be dangerous in extreme. After all, it is so easy to lose a battle because your scryer lies to you, or your battlemage drops that big killing spell on your general and his aides, or onto your elite troops. And as soon as you trust them to protect you with magic... Well, remember that a mage can cancel his own spell by spending one fatigue... Also, many coups (especially in Imperial Rome) happened through the palace guards (praetorians), who were supposed to protect the Emperor. I mean, you can certainly posit such a society where it would work. People being what they are, I doubt everyone would be happy to toe the line, though. To reiterate my earlier post's point, this would work much better in a society where the head honcho also controls the source of the magical power, such as being the earthly regent of a god and the mages are actually priests of the said god. |
03-21-2012, 12:33 PM | #75 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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The king benefits. He gets his power. So he has incentive enough to keep the game running. We can have multiple kings each running the same setup, but fighting each other. None of them want the wizards to go free. That's mutually assured destruction. They'll fight battles. They'll have proxy wars. But no one will ever, ever risk the wizards going free. Because then every politician everywhere loses their power. So, you could have a duke or an earl or whatever lead a civil war and that's fine, as long as the wizards aren't freed. Quote:
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03-21-2012, 12:35 PM | #76 |
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Belém, Pará, Amazônia, Brasil.
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
I imagine that mages could found secret societies and keep it secretive. And I think a kingdom with powerful free wizards will mop the floor with this tiranic kingdom full of low level mages, as the mages probably wouldn't like to this tiranic kingdom to keep mages enslaved.
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03-21-2012, 12:49 PM | #77 | |
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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I think what we really need for these armies are a few things: limited number of mages, limit training for the mages, and limited spell access even for the rulers. If we give them access to every spell, then they'll just use the more powerful spells every time. But if they only have access to Create Animal and its prerequisites, then they can start thinking about doing interesting things on the battlefield with it. Maybe you get a war wagon full of people churning out elephants. |
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03-21-2012, 12:50 PM | #78 | |||||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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I can see it taking incredible resources to apply state control over magic, but its not all that inherently expensive to train the mages to do magic. You get IQ-1 in a spell for 2 points just like you get DX-1 in flail for 2 points. Quote:
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03-21-2012, 01:05 PM | #79 | |||
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: OK
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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To create new spells, you have to make a Thaumatology roll, which defaults to IQ-7. Thaumatology skill is not taught to the slaves. The papers with that knowledge would be kept secret, probably encrypted. And you have to have an expensive workshop. So the person coming up with new spells is probably the prince of the duke or one of the senators or someone like that. And then they would have an incentive to keep those new spells secret: they don't want people in other kingdoms getting hold of them and they don't want to risk escaped slaves getting hold of them. Sure, this requires all of the rulers to be paranoid. But I can at least picture how all of this could work in my mind. It's a coherent setting. Quote:
If you have slaves working in a field, it's to make money. You can't spend more on preventing a revolt than you would make. It would defeat the purpose. It's not so with wizards as slaves to further political ends. You can spend an incredible amount of money making sure they do not revolt. Making sure there is no possibility of such a thing happening. After all, rulers spent huge sums on achieving those same ends. How much did the helepolis cost? How much did a navy? An army? Castles? If you had wizards, you could use some of the funds that would have otherwise been spent on those things and use them to raise your wizards and make sure they're kept under control. Keep them shackled and gagged. Give each of the more powerful ones their own castle and army to guard them. Probe their mind to make sure they aren't planning escape. I don't think there would be any expense spared on making sure the guy that casts Youth or the guy that casts Resurrection is kept under complete and total control. |
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03-21-2012, 01:22 PM | #80 | |
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Re: Ceremonial Magic used to support an army.
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Census takers just need a magelight- wave in targets face, if pupils dilate they have at least magery 0. The census taker does not even need to be a mage themselves, just wave the magic stick around and check eyes. Edit: Also ErhnamDJ- you seem really married to this 'wizards as slaves' concept; but no one agrees with you, perhaps you should just agree to disagree and let it go- or start a new thread about 'Why wizard's as slaves will work' and just post the link here. Last edited by starslayer; 03-21-2012 at 01:32 PM. |
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