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Old 02-26-2014, 06:03 AM   #11
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You'll notice that I haven't talked about the Technocracy (I'd probably just give them access to higher TL items) or two of the Traditions. That's because I just don't understand either the Cult of Ecstasy or the Euthanatos very well. I never did read their Tradition splatbooks, and they aren't well described in the original rules. Can anyone shed any light on those? Or, if you just have any comments on the idea in general, or better ways to do these or the Technocracy, feel free to chime in.
The Euthanatos are not anything like murder addicts, they are the mages of Fate. They have terrible knowledge and the responciblity of that knowledge. They know that if A doesn't die by 2PM all of A's future incarnations will be ruined. A will live a thousand lives of misery and bring disaster to millions. On the other hand, if A dies by torture before 2PM then A lives a hundred joyful lives, achieves full enlightenment, brings joy, hope, and liberty, to billions, and becomes a bodhisatva. This is a horrible burden of responcibility.

The Ecstatics want to liberate everyone now. They just want to be careful about it. They believe that the path of joy and wonder is the road to the liberation of all souls in the universe. They get that they need to be careful, but they want to keep the path to spiritual freedom always availible for as many as possible.
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: GURPS M:tA

So, then, the only thing that really distinguishes the Euthanatos is that they have an unfailingly correct foreknowledge of the right time and circumstance for someone to die? That's actually a pretty good idea and gives me a couple of ways to approach them. They might seem better suited to NPCs, though.

Still trying to get a handle on the CoX, but the idea of sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, wine, women, and song is a pretty good lead.
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:20 PM   #13
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Default Re: GURPS M:tA

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That brings up another point, though. You say that the VAs are more than just Machine Telepaths. That may be the case, but I don't see much reason to go further, myself. What, specifically, do you think could or should be added?
The premise is all wrong. “Machine Telepathy” assumes that the purpose of VA magic is to manipulate computers; it isn’t. Rather, computers are the tools they use to work their magic. Looking at the various VA subtypes (known as “alts”):

• The Cyberpunks are hardware freaks, and are often riddled with cybernetic implants every bit as much as Iteration X Technocrats are. They deal primarily with Forces effects.
• Cypherpunks are masters of mind magic: think “GURPS Horror: the Madness Dossier”, with a mastery of neuro-linguistics that allows them to use sensory impressions to rewire the brain.
• Chaoticians are VAs who are masters of prediction: in mystical terms, they use digital phenomena as a means of divination — and sometimes they get proactive and set up “feedback loops” that let them alter said digital phenomena in a way that alters the prediction, altering the future and giving rise to what more traditional mages call blessings and curses. Which brings us to:
• The Reality Coders are technomages who create digital simulations of reality, invoke the mystical Law of Similarity to link their simulations to the things being simulated, and then edit the simulation, causing the changes they make to be echoed in the thing being simulated. For instance, an expert in Life magic could use this technique to modify a creature’s genetic code to cause mutations; or an expert in Forces could model a weather system and then edit it to generate (or prevent) a thunderstorm. An expert in Matter could model a lump of coal and then restructure the model to one representing a diamond, or carbon nanotubes. And so on.
• The Nexplorers are the “netrunner” VAs who operate in the Digital Web; they’re the ones who work their magic to manipulate computers. That’s one alt out of five…

Note that these aren’t mutually exclusive categories; any VA could dabble in any of these areas. These are merely the areas that each alt is best known for. So yes, there are VAs for whom something like Machine Telepathy might be appropriate; but I wouldn’t want to reduce the whole Tradition to just that.

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I don't see how modeling the Etherites (to choose the available example) as Gadgeteers simplifies them overmuch. Just allow those to purchase High TL and pick up higher TL skills, in addition to or as an alternative to TL N+X. Problem solved.
That does cover a significant amount of ground, yes. But does it cover, say, Occult Mechanics? Which alternate tech lets an Etherite apply the Heterodyne Corollary to a Hermetic’s magical tools, as in the linked example? At what TL do Fortean Phenomena diverge? More often than not, Ether Science isn’t Ultra-Tech, Divergent Tech, or Superscience (i.e., TL9+, TLx+y, or TLn^, respectively); it’s Weird Science, something that GURPS has a skill for but lacks any sort of standardized rules for, because it’s potentially all over the board.


BTW: for any Tradition that you’d consider modeling with GURPS Powers, I would strongly recommend allowing the player to make liberal use of the “Using Abilities at Default” optional rule: a hallmark of every variety of magic in Mage: the Ascension is the versatility of the mage. Likewise, I’d recommend the Ritual Magic variant on regular magic instead of the buy-every-spell-as-a-separate-skill approach, for much the same reason. And “cinematic skill” types should probably get the Wild Talent Advantage (limited to cinematic skills) to give them some ability to improvise. In short: every magic system that you consider, you should look for whatever rules exist for allowing the magician to improvise.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: GURPS M:tA

Ether science is TL^, as in that universe all TLs above present day, whatever that may be, is ^. The main difference being that technocratic TLs prefer to be TL 8+X^ rather than other unique variations.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:47 PM   #15
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There’s some truth to that — though Ether Science is even more “all over the map” than merely “all TLs above the present day”: for instance, there were Etherites into Steampunk before it was a thing. And there’s still the “Occult Mechanics” bit; though admittedly Fantasy-Tech 1 covers some of that.

But I contend that calling Ether Science “TL^” doesn’t buy you anything useful, as it gives you no practical guidelines as to what an Etherite can or can’t do. M:tA, at least, had the Spheres to provide some useful guidelines.

The other issue with using Gadgeteering to represent the Sons of Ether is that it only deals with inventing gadgets; unless you go really lenient with the rules and allow a Gadgeteer to invent a process or a theory, there are still things that Etherites ought to be able to do that Gadgeteer doesn’t cover.
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Old 02-26-2014, 05:08 PM   #16
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Now we seem to be getting somewhere!

I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players. Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.

Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.

Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:40 PM   #17
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I think that you are underestimating the amount of work that can be dumped on the players.
Nah; my position has never been “it’s too much work!” I have argued that a lot of the work is unnecessary or misplaced; but I’ve never opposed it on the basis of sheer quantity.

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Specifically, here, if a player wanting to play an Etherite wants to have some wildly variant tech (and I had forgotten about Weird Science, which should definitely be added into their options), then give them the job and opportunity to write it up, subject to GM approval.
This makes me wonder how thoroughly you read my counterproposal; because I have Weird Science at the heart of the Etherites.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that in the oWoD, the magic of the Awakened isn’t the only game in town. There are other kinds of magic (collectively referred to as “Sorcery” or “Hedge Magic”) that aren’t rooted in the premise that magic is an extension of the mage. Instead, they depend on properties inherent to the world itself (commonly referred to as “mythic threads”); and the Sorcerers who practice these arts do so by binding themselves to these mythic threads and then learning how to go about manipulating them. If I was doing MtA in GURPS 4e, the sorts of things that you’re suggesting are exactly how I’d handle the various Sorceries.

I’d also point out that the various Sorceries overlap in no small part with the various paradigms of the Awakened, to the point that it takes a discerning eye to tell the difference; some have even theorized that the Awakened paradigms created the mythic threads that are at the heart of the Sorceries (though there’s no proof of that, and it may merely be the infamous hubris of the Awakened to make that claim). This is part of what I was going for when I talked about each paradigm getting suitable rules modifications through Style Perks, and was also the reason behind my suggestion that every paradigm be given a “Power Limitation” that captures the shortcomings inherent in that paradigm. To illustrate what I have in mind:

• The Order of Hermes doesn’t practice spell magic as defined in GURPS Magic; but there are sorcerers in the setting who do; and because the Hermetic paradigm uses the Magic Power Modifier, wizards of the Order deal with many of the same issues that “Hermetic sorcerers” have to deal with, such as fluctuating mana levels. So it can be tricky at times to distinguish a Hermetic mage from a Hermetic sorcerer. Matters are even messier in that members of the Order of Hermes aren’t prevented from learning and using the spells of Hermetic sorcerers; indeed, the same Magery that acts like a Power Talent for them also serves as an enabler for regular spell magic. It’s just that this option is rarely pursued because study of the Realms is so much more effective than learning spells one by one. Likewise, both types of Hermetics find it useful to study Thaumatology — though the Awakened ones arguably get more use out of the skill than the Sleeper ones do.

• The Dreamspeakers’ Spirit-based paradigm means that they don’t have to worry about fluctuating mana levels the way that the Order of Hermes does; but they do have to worry about appeasing the spirits, and they depend on Ritual Magic. They coexist with “Sleeper shamans” who practice a type of Path Magic reminiscent of the magic system found in Voodoo: the Shadow War: Ritual Magic as the core skill; five or six Paths (including Spirit, Health, and Nature; probably also including two or three of Luck, Protection, Knowledge, and Dreams); the need for long rituals, sacred space, and ritual symbols; etc. And the Dreamspeakers’ own powers, while definitely a cut above those of the Sleeper shamans, resemble them in several ways.

And so on.

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Regarding the VAs, I can see that (remember that I haven't read the splatbooks, so most of that stuff is new to me), and if a player wanted to do that stuff, I'd work with them to figure out ways to cover it. In regard to the point that a VA could study beyond their little sub-"genre", as it were, that brings up the idea that any PC could, potentially, develop multiple "paradigms" and pick up advantages, powers, or skills from more than one Tradition, a potential advantage of using GURPS over the less flexible WW system.
That all depends on how you define “flexible”.

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Plus, that cybernetics stuff really looks like the VAs aren't as removed from the Technocrats as they want everyone to believe (which, actually, is probably a thread I'd follow: there is an increasingly large set of former cyberpunks in the real world who, like Jaron Lanier, have come to believe that the computer revolution has been completely subverted to the purposes of Power, though I am oversimplifying the position they express, and they make some good points).
Oh, certainly! That said, the VAs have never tried to pretend that they’re not technomancers (though there’s a lot more “-mancer” than “techno-” in the Reality Hackers); and the main divide between them and the Technocracy has less to do with what paradigm they favor than with what they shuld do with that paradigm: liberation vs. control is much more at the heart of the dispute between the Technocracy and the VAs than what paradigm to use.

Heck, that’s true (albeit to a somewhat lesser extent) of every Tradition: the Ascension War isn’t about what form magic should take; it’s about what you should do with it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: GURPS M:tA

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So, then, the only thing that really distinguishes the Euthanatos is that they have an unfailingly correct foreknowledge of the right time and circumstance for someone to die? That's actually a pretty good idea and gives me a couple of ways to approach them. They might seem better suited to NPCs, though.
Not exactly. They are burdened with the responcibility no matter what. They all die and come back as part of their awakening. Most Euthanatos don't kill, and wouldn't except in extreme circumstances. Those that do the killing are seen as extra burdened. House Helakar was seen as an abommination because they enjoyed killing. The average Euthanatos is more likely to force someone out of their rut. They might get someone fired from their job, wreck their engagement, and get their home foreclosed, to push them into to taking a chance on their dreams. Note: any Euthanatos that does these things without making sure they don't destroy or seriously harm their subject would be seen as immoral.

Euthanatos tend to see serial killers, child molesters, serial rapists, and similar types as living dead people. They would desire to liberate them from a failed life in such a way as to clean their karma, that they might be born to better lives. This need not involve killing them, exposing their crimes and getting them tried and convicted might do just as well. Similarly, people who are brain dead and on life support are also seen as living dead. They also require liberation. Sometimes this is death, other times it's healing. Euthanatos are more likely to kill, but as servants of fate, they don't do so lightly nor would anyone who does so by preference be acceptable to the Euthanatos.

For any Euthanatos, killing a sophant being is a terrible burden and a horrible thing to do. It is a burtal punishment to be requiered to kill. but they face the punishment that others may avoid worse horrors. Note: The Euthatos can't stand creeps who get off on martyrdom.

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Still trying to get a handle on the CoX, but the idea of sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll, wine, women, and song is a pretty good lead.
The CoX sees these as the start of the path of Liberation. They believe that a generous universe placed the path of mankind's liberation and exaltation in plain sight. That doesn't mean the path isn't hard and dangerous, passion can kill. The path of ecstatic experience is hard and often deadly. The Code of Ananda (the law of Pleasure) is actually very strict. There are amoral CoX types calling themselves "The Cult of Bacchus" they tend to be far more selfish and selfcentered. The adherents of Ananda act to reign them in and prevent them from destroying others, when it possible. The Cult of Bacchus has from time to time forced the mainline Ecstatics to call in the Euthanatos and the Hermetics to aid them in eliminating groups gone bad beyond all words.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:03 PM   #19
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Right. The real touchstone of the Euthanatoi isn’t so much about death as it is about balancing the scales of karma.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:59 PM   #20
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Well, now I feel like I have a better handle on their philosophies, but have lost any idea of their magic.

Perhaps I'll come back to this when I can present what I'm trying to do in a more coherent fashion. To me, it seems as though much of the discussion here has ended up moving the idea in a direction very different than I'd intended. I've been calling this other direction "simulating the WW game" when I describe it to myself, and that's not exactly what I was hoping to do. Since that's what more than one person seems to want to do, though, it is clear that I am failing at communicating my intention. Sadly, I think that any attempt to further elucidate my original intent will appear as being merely argumentative.

Anyway, given what I had originally thought and some of the changes in that thinking that develop from the excellent conversation here, I think I have enough. I can just remove the CoX and Euthanatos from what I work up. Thank you for all of your help.
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