Speeding up melee combat? No surprise...

[Lord Azagthoth]

even after I threw in the -2 with deceptive attacks

You can add that penalty multiple times in an attack. In my campaign, players frequently trade a -10 to get a -5 on the opponent's defenses. Once the opponent is hit, he'll take shock penalties to and then its over very quickly.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth

You can add that penalty multiple times in an attack. In my campaign, players frequently trade a -10 to get a -5 on the opponent's defenses. Once the opponent is hit, he'll take shock penalties to and then its over very quickly.

Wouldn't Shock penalties just make them AoD, thus making it harder to hit them the next turn?

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Wouldn't Shock penalties just make them AoD, thus making it harder to hit them the next turn?

That is likely the case. If Shock penalty applies to DX and DX based skills then half of it applies to defense as well.

But then the attacker can declare AoA himself. Double number of attacks vs. a reduced defence means a hit (or two) is more likely.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

That is likely the case. If Shock penalty applies to DX and DX based skills then half of it applies to defense as well.

It explicitly doesn't.

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

That just sounds like your GM is a jerk, and the best advice we can give you is to ask him/her why they want you to suffer.

It might have been a GM lessen of “hey, sometimes you just have to run.”

[hal]

Originally Posted by rerednaw

Or in my experience, skipping the “Strike, Parry, Strike, Parry” UNTIL critical hit cycle?

What do you do as a player to mitigate this?
What do you do as a GM?
As a player, I tried different tactics, disarm, reduce my attack to drop their active defense (aka deceptive), etc...try to flank and get behind them...but this isn’t always viable. Sometimes my tactices made the situation worse because if I had just swung (w/o the penalties I took for a maneuver) I would have gotten a critical hit.

Thanks!

Aha! I had forgotten about the Feint maneuver...this will help a lot, thanks!

One thing that gets overlooked in melee combats for GURPS, is the role of the Shield.

For 23 points (16, 5, and 2) on behalf of a character with DX 13, they can start with a shield skill of 18, a Feint(Shield) of 22, and a Broadsword or spear skill at 13.

First - attack foe's likely unprotected face with the shield at skill-5, or adjusted skill 13. Any critical hits get rolled on the head hits table instead of standard crit table. If you hit, a ST 11 warrior with the shield will do 1d6-1 damage. There is a 5 in 6 chance that if you hit, your opponent will have to make a HT-5 knockdown saving roll. Last but not least? Any contest of feints will be against a skill 22. This favors the shield user in a big way.

Me? If I were a player at a convention or playing in someone else's game world, I'd take that character. If Weapon Master is available, I'd take it as a two weapon combination for Spear and Shield so that they do +1 damage each, and can do rapid strikes etc - without much in the way of penalties.

As always, talk of tactics depends on the campaign environment, the actual opponents involved, and an observation of their armoring (or lack thereof) and even of using the tactics implied by GURPS MARTIAL ARTS (defensive attacks, offensive attacks without going all out, etc) along with a few tricks here or there.

For example? Imagine instead, taking Shield(Shield) at 18, Feint(shield) 19, Shield(Targeted attack, Jaw) 15, Spear 13. This costs 24 points.

Now, the shield user can do a feint with skill 19 against his opponents, use a deceptive attack for jaw at skill 13, or a normal jaw hit at 15, and do everything I mentioned above.

So, just have fun exploring things. My advice to you is this: Imagine doing it in real life. Imagine STOMPING down HARD on someone's foot with your own and what effects it might have on combat if damage gets through the lower DR of a boot. Imagine what happens if someone rushes into you with a shield. Imagine someone getting in close, and using the pommel of their sword to add extra OOMPH to a punch with their hand while in close combat. Then? READ the rules on how those are played out in GURPS. Go for hand shots on a regular basis - if you get past the hand DR, it doesn't take much to cripple the hand.

Take a wait option for your enemy to close to within reach, and then specify "Just as he swings, interrupt their attack".

[Railstar]

First of all, this is going to vary immensely with your characters and the monsters they are up against. For instance, if the monsters are shrugging off 16 fatigue then it's entirely possible your GM is just scaling up the monsters so that they are difficult to hit or defeat normally. In which case, there's nothing you can do.

Long weapon tactics can help tremendously. By this I mean you Retreat from their attack, and then step back on your turn. This way your foe needs to Move & Attack (or Committed Attack, or All-Out Attack) to be able to reach you. Either one of those would compromise their defences.

However, that assumes availability of long weapons, something like a spear or polearm - which might not be taken for granted depending on the setting (for instance a modern-day campaign). Which brings me back to the 'it depends enormously on your characters and the monsters.' The tactics and options that work at moderate or realistic skill levels are very different to those that work when skill 20 is commonplace.

If outnumbered, your opponents can Cross-Parry (for +2) or Retreat (for +3 or +1), so it's very easy to defend against just one attack. A Judoka with Judo 12, Combat Reflexes, and a Parry of 10 would be effectively Parrying at 15.

Does the GM use this? Because that might explain high active defences. If so, then one way around it is to focus fire on a single target (so they don't benefit from the Retreat + Cross-Parry against the second attack). Reach can be particularly good for this.

If not, then it might just be that the GM wanted the monsters to be a difficult fight - which is a problem, some GMs want to 'balance' fights so that the boss battle is difficult no matter what you do.

[Ultraviolet]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It explicitly doesn't.

I thought as much, and that's how we do it as well. I guess I just went along with the train of thoughts in the question about AoD. And then got confused when reading that shock applies to DX based skills.

But being Stunned is -4 to defense. Unless you're also knocked down, in which vase it's worse.

So suffering the (maximum) shock penalty of -4 means your own attack is likely to miss - so why don't you just drop it and call AoD to favour not being hit again.
But then the attacker may just double his efforts with AoA (if he knows he won't get hit back) to try and even out the advantage of AoD.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet

I thought as much, and that's how we do it as well. I guess I just went along with the train of thoughts in the question about AoD. And then got confused when reading that shock applies to DX based skills.

But being Stunned is -4 to defense. Unless you're also knocked down, in which vase it's worse.

So suffering the (maximum) shock penalty of -4 means your own attack is likely to miss - so why don't you just drop it and call AoD to favour not being hit again.
But then the attacker may just double his efforts with AoA (if he knows he won't get hit back) to try and even out the advantage of AoD.

The thing about all out attacks is that you are unable to defend yourself. An individual with shield at 15, in dire straights, while at -4 to hit, can still aim a blow at your character's jaw and still have a 50/50 chance of hitting despite the -4 to hit. How?

Skill 15 base -4 shock penalty, -5 hit location penalty, +4 telegraphed attack.

Normally, the target of a telegraphed blow gets a +2 bonus to defense, unless they have all out attacked. A successful hit to the jaw has a 2 in 6 chance causing a HT-5 saving roll vs knockdown for a ST 11 fighter.

All out double attack always has a chance one of the double attacks will miss, and AoA extra to hit can be relatively worthless when weighed against being defenseless. Extra damage can as easily be accomplished with the +1 damage bonus from GURPS MARTIAL ARTS so there really isn't of a benefit to AoA in the grand scheme of things.

In the 30 years as GMing GURPS, I've seen things happen with die rolls at the table you'd swear were made up. A skill 26 vs 18 sword duel, where the skill 18 individual win not one, but two back to back duels. How? A crit success against the defender's weapon arm in the first attack. A crit fail to parry the attack vs aimed blow to weapon arm on the second duel.

I've seen a second of two attacks of AoA miss.

So yes, AoA attacks seem cool, but they incur a needless risk it can lead to embarrassments that get talked about years and even decades later...

;)

[ericthered]

AoA is not safe in this case unless you are not the person who delivered the first blow. To demonstrate:


Elf Turn 1: attacks the orc, and stabs him for 4 damage. The Orc now has -4 to his next action


Orc Turn 1: The orc all out defends, because he's got a -4 to attack.


Elf Turn 2: The Elf, seeing that the orc isn't planning to attack, All out attacks! unfortunately, the blow doesn't hit.


Orc Turn 2: The orc no longer has -4 to attack, but the elf has no defenses! the orc telegraphically attacks the elf, and has an extremely high likelihood of hitting, with no way for the elf to block if he's hit...


Now, if the elf had a buddy, its slightly different, but I still wouldn't recommend it:


Elf 1 Turn 1: Stabs orc for 4 damage. Orc gets -4 to attack.
Elf 2 Turn 1: All out attacks orc for 4 more damage. Orc still has -4 to attack.

Orc Turn 1: Telegraphic attacks Elf 2. The shock penalty and the telegraphic attack cancel, but the orc still has a 75% chance of hitting elf 2 and elf 2 has no way to defend, unless the GM has house ruled in sacrificial parries or his buddy has shield wall training. The Orc will probably die to the uninjured elf, but at least he got to take one with him, and what more can an orc ask of battle?