The 'Counter' house rule for LEITL

[larsdangly]

Hi everyone; I post below my house rule for an active defense I refer to as the Counter (to distinguish it from the Defend action and Parrying with Two Weapons talent). My write up is quite long for such a simple rule, but I wanted to be quite clear about how it works in all situations, including several complex examples And I tacked on some editorial comments so you understand the rationale. This rule is effectively a narrower application of house rules I used for many, many years in classic edition ITL, so it has seen a lot of play testing. The experience has been that it gets used only occasionally, when high DX combatants want to do something fancy in a 1 on 1 melee duel at close quarters, but otherwise its trade off of benefits and drawbacks make it more of an option rather than something everyone would want to do all the time.

THE ‘COUNTER’ ACTION IN MELEE COMBAT
The ‘Counter’ action uses a melee weapon, shield, or any body part capable of delivering an unarmed attack, to foil a single, specified attack that is delivered against you. A Counter attempt must be declared when the attack against you is announced but before the attack roll for that attack is made.

The Counter is resolved as an opposed roll (LEITL p.8), where the countering combatant rolls vs. DX (usually on 3d, but see below) and compares the result with the relevant attack roll; if the Counter roll succeeds and has a margin of success equal to or greater than that for the relevant attack roll, then the Counter succeeds.

The result of a successful Counter is that the damage done by the specified attack (if successful; an unsuccessful attack roll obviously does no damage) is reduced by an amount that depends on what was used to perform the Counter:

Weapon: 3 points for every die of damage done by the weapon (e.g., 3 pts. for a rapier; 6 pts. for a saber or 1H bastard sword; 9 pts. for a great sword)

Shield: 3x the normal protective value of the shield. Note that this is in addition to the normal protection afforded by the shield (following the principle that shield protection applies even when the shield is used for another purpose, such as a shield bash, main gauche attack or Defend action).

Unarmed (e.g., hand): 3 points for every die of HTH damage (special: 1 pt. if damage is 1d-4; 2 pts. if damage is 1d-3).

Double and triple these values on a roll of 4 or 3 on 3d, as per damage for attack rolls.

A counter has no effect on any attack other than the one to which it is specifically directed, or if it fails or loses the opposed roll. I.e., unlike the Defend action or the protective value of a shield, main gauche or parrying weapon (see the Two Weapons talent), a Counter action influences the outcome of one and only one attack, and depends on a successful die roll.

A counter generally may be directed only against a melee attack; however, a shield may be used to counter a thrown or missile weapon attack (other than a bullet), and any weapon or body part that could deliver a HTH attack may be used to perform a Counter in HTH combat.

Unless otherwise noted, a Counter should be treated as a melee or HTH attack in all respects (i.e., with respect to restrictions on movement, DX penalties, number and order of actions per turn, etc.). Functionally, you can treat the Counter as a variant of attack, made in place of a melee attack with that same weapon (hand, shield, etc.), but resolved simultaneously with the targeted hostile attack rather than at the countering combatant’s normal place in the order of actions.

Special: In exchange for an additional penalty (below), a combatant may elect to perform an ‘Attack and Counter’ action in place of either a normal Attack or normal Counter. In this case, the combatant performs a melee attack roll with the chosen weapon (or hand, shield, etc.) at his or her normal place in the action order, and performs a Counter with that same weapon (or hand, shield, etc.) simultaneous with the relevant hostile attack. Thus, the action may be performed either by first attacking and then countering or by first countering and then attacking. Regardless of the order of actions, both the Attack and Counter suffer from a -4 DX penalty (though other factors might modify this further, as per any other attack-like roll). Because this penalty applies to both rolls, you must openly announce your selection of the Attack and Counter action whenever the first of the two component rolls is made (despite the fact that the attack you wish to counter may not yet have occurred - and in fact might never occur!).

Combatants who wish to perform a Counter (or Attack and Counter) with one weapon, hand or shield and an attack or second Counter (or Attack and Counter) with another weapon, hand or shield on the same turn should resolve these two components of their action using all the modifiers that normally apply to attacking with two weapons, as given in the rules for Left Handed weapons (LEITL p. 117), the Two Weapons talent and various ‘Peculiar’ weapons.

[larsdangly]

Illustrative examples of the Counter and Attack and Counter actions actions in play:

• Fildebrant, a hero with broadsword and main gauche and adj.DX 12 is attacked by a frog-man with a jabbing 2H spear and adj.DX 11. Before the attack roll is resolved, the hero announces he will Counter the attack using his sword. Both combatants roll 3d; Fildebrant gets an 8 and the frog man a 9. Both succeed, meaning the attack is successfully delivered, doing 1d+1 damage, but the hero won the opposed roll, and so will reduce that damage by 7 points (6 for the 2d weapon, +1 point for his main gauche) — certainly foiling this spear jab.

• Pan Macko, an experienced Sabeur (Saber, adj.DX 15, Fencing talent) is engaged in melee combat with an orc bearing a war axe having adj.DX 10. Macko decides to Attack and Counter for his action; the orc will simply attack. Macko first delivers a slash, rolling vs. his adjusted DX of 11 on 3d getting a 12, or a miss. The orc then attacks, rolling a 9 on 3d; because Macko has Fencing talent, the orc suffered a further -1 DX penalty for this attack, so the margin of success was 0. Macko’s Counter rolls a 9 on 3d — a margin of success of 2 (recall his adjDX is 11 for this component of the action as well) and thus a successful Counter. The 2d war axe damage is reduced by 6 pts.

• Later in his frog-man smack down, Fildebrant is now in reach of his foe (i.e., they are engaged) and decides to use his action to Attack with his broadsword and Counter with his main gauche. On his turn, he rolls 3d vs. his adjDX of 12, missing with a roll of 14. Then, when the frog man’s turn in the action order comes, an opposed roll is made between the spear Attack (3d vs. 11) and main gauche Counter (3d vs. 8), with results of 7 and 8, respectively. The spear attack hits and the Counter attempt fails, because it lost the opposed roll. The blow will do 1d+1 damage, reduced by only 1 point (the basic protective value of the main gauche).

• Pan Macko faces his arch rival, the deadly and nefarious Comte’ Largesse (adj.DX 17, rapier and main gauche, Fencing talent). They are engaged in melee combat. Largesse intends to open with a shrewd thrust with his rapier at adj.DX 13; normally his main gauche attack would occur at the same time (as its adjDX value is also 13), but Largesse wishes to hold that in reserve as a Counter. He is not obligated to say so at this point, as it is a simple Counter action performed with the left handed weapon, not an ‘Attack and Counter’ action with a single weapon. Pan Macko normally could strike before the rapier attack, but announces he will Attack and Counter, reducing his own adjDX to 11, though the Counter is resolved simultaneous with the rapier attack. Largesse rolls 3d vs. an adjDX of 13, Macko 3d vs. his adjDX of 11; the results of 12 and 9 indicate Macko won the contest, giving him 6 points of protection – enough to blunt Largesse’s lethal shrewd lunge damage of 8 down to a mere prick of 2 points. Macko then delivers his Attack, a saber cut, at adjDX 11. Largesse now declares he will use his main gauche to Counter, at adjDX 13. Their respective rolls of 13 and 6 indicate Macko simply missed but Largesse would have been well-covered regardless, as he won the contest and so would have applied 4 points of protection to any damage done.

[larsdangly]

Comments:

The Counter and ‘Attack and Counter’ actions are not intended to replace the Defend action, or the Parry action enabled by Two Weapons talent; rather, these alternative approaches to combat defense serve different purposes and are more or less effective in different circumstances. A combatant subject to multiple dangerous melee attacks on the same turn may be better served by the Defend action, which has the potential to negate all of several attacks. A combatant who is relatively well armored may benefit more by a Parry with one or both of two weapons, as the additional increase in damage reduction may render all threatening attacks harmless with no risk of failure. And, the Counter is of marginal use against much larger weapons or against a foe with much higher adj.DX. However, the counter is effectively when employed by high adjDX combatants against a foe who is similar or lower in DX and armed with weapons of similar or lesser power. And, the Attack and Counter special option is among the only ways a combatant can use a single weapon to deliver more than one effective actions on the same turn (other examples include the Sweeping Blow, multiple shots with a draw bow).

The ‘Attack and Counter’ special option may appear to be overly complex given the level of abstraction of the ITL core rules, but serves two purposes: 1) it provides a means of resolving tactically simple situations, such as a one-on-one sword duel, with greater range of effective choices and outcomes – and thus more excitement and interest (see the fourth example, above); and, 2) it effectively models a core concept of the well documented armed martial arts: attacks should simultaneously defend, and defenses should simultaneously threaten attack — from the ‘absetzen’ and ‘master-cuts’ of medieval European sword techniques, to the blade grabs and hand-checks of the renaissance rapier, to the parry-riposte of modern fencing, skillful armed combat has always aimed to simultaneously foil a foe’s attack while delivering your own. The Attack and Counter action provides a relatively straightforward way to integrate this idea into your ITL game.

Note that for most combatants, equipment and situations, there is a 'break even' point between the Attack and Counter action being worth it or not. If your adjDX is normally 14, the reduction in expected value on the damage you would do each turn is roughly balanced by the rise in expected value of protection you would apply to your foe's attack. When your adjDX is normally 15 or higher this option is increasingly attractive; when 13 or lower it entails too much risk of failing one or both rolls and is less attractive.

[Steve Plambeck]

Hi lars -- if you noticed my last post in your 'Reactions' thread you'll have noticed my group's "Parry" option has rather a lot in common with your "Counter" option, so much so that lots of our thought and years of play testing addressed many of the specific issues you just brought up.

Originally Posted by larsdangly

A Counter attempt must be declared when the attack against you is announced but before the attack roll for that attack is made.

If I may suggest, rather than saying "when the attack is announced", consider interjecting the declaration to Counter after the attacker's Roll To Hit, but before their roll for damage. You don't want to tempt players into waffling, as in: "I will attack Garth", Garth says "Then I will Counter", and then the attacker says "Wait, no, I didn't mean attack Garth, I meant Otto" or some such situation. Let the attacker commit by making their DX roll, and then as they pick up the dice to roll for damage the defender gets to say, not so fast, I Counter. No haggling, and it saves a step too if the attacker misses their Roll To Hit. The defender sees the blow is really hitting them before they shout "Counter!".

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The result of a successful Counter is that the damage done [snip] is reduced by an amount that depends on what was used to perform the Counter: Weapon: 3 points for every die of damage done by the weapon....

We had lots and lots of rules for this point in the process, trying to keep things fair when the opposing weapons were dissimilar in size, with a "break resistance" stat assigned for every defending weapon. Now having had years to think about it, I think there's a better, simpler way that will work with fewer rules:

The attacker rolls to hit (assume success) then the defender successfully rolls to Counter (or what we called Parry). Now the attacker rolls for their weapon's usual damage. Now the defender also rolls for their weapon's usual damage, and that result becomes the number of hits stopped. Thus a broadsword will on average stop as many hits as another broadsword makes, but the result is still never predictable because the attacker may roll high while the defender rolls low. Now if the attacker is using a great sword, but the defender only has a rapier, the chance of stopping all the hits goes down; reverse the weapons and the attacking damage goes up. The problem takes care of itself. And because the players are trading two die rolls each, it should be noisy, exciting and fun. Note I haven't tested this yet, but I think it's promising.

In my group the Roll To Parry (which for you would be the Roll To Counter) came with special results I still like. On a 17 or 18, the defender's weapon was broken, and on a 15 or 16 the defender's weapon was dropped. But if the defender rolled a 3 or 4, the attacker's weapon got broken in the exchange, and on a parrying roll of 5 or 6 the attacker's weapon was dropped (forcibly disarmed).

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Unarmed (e.g., hand): 3 points for every die of HTH damage

Ummmm... doesn't stopping an incoming sword or axe with a bare hand cost you a lot of fingers? :) :) :)

[larsdangly]

Thanks for the feedback! Indeed, there is a lot in common between what I posted and your earlier post; I suspect anyone who really playtests this stuff extensively will work their way to something close to what we are doing. Some quick reactions:

1) I prefer that the declaration of the action happens before the attack roll because it obviously raises the value of the Counter (parry, whatever) substantially if you only spend your action on it when a foe has succeeded in hitting you (and, because I used Opposed Roll mechanics) you know the margin of their success. I would have to try it at the table to be sure, but I suspect this is too unbalancing; certainly too much of a power shift to do it just to avoid awkward conversations when players waffle.

2) I love your opposed damage roll idea. I don't know why it never occurred to me; it is quite elegant. It has the disadvantage of adding another die roll. That's a significant factor and would argue against the approach in some circumstances, but here the foe is making a damage roll anyway, so there is no cost to speed of play. And it adds a bit of drama, which is always welcome in a combat system. I actually haven't been using any parry/counter/reaction sorts of rules at my table in past months because I committed to playing RAW until I really had Legacy Edition down pat. But now that I'm titrating in some house rules I think I'll experiment with your suggestion. It has the great advantage of removing a whole block of rules details.

3) You can totally use your off hand to block, parry, grab or disarm weapons of all sorts; these techniques are central to most of the medieval 'fight books' I've encountered in a HEMA context. These methods rely on the fact that even a lightly gloved hand can avoid being cut by a blade if it is grabbed appropriately, and by methods that target a foe's wrist or arm. I would say the potential that you mess up the technique and get hurt is covered by the fact that you will take damage if you fail or lose your opposed Counter roll.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

2) I love your opposed damage roll idea. I don't know why it never occurred to me; it is quite elegant. It has the disadvantage of adding another die roll. That's a significant factor and would argue against the approach in some circumstances, but here the foe is making a damage roll anyway, so there is no cost to speed of play. And it adds a bit of drama, which is always welcome

Thanks, if you use it let me know how you like it! I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner either -- the house rule it changes I was using almost 40 years ago, and I only had this idea to amend it this way a couple weeks ago. Constantly talking about this stuff in this forum is probably sharpening all our brains.

Right, the two damage rolls can be made at the same time so nothing slows down. Best if the two rollers each have their own color dice.

The bare-handed Counter/Parry (very cool actually) should still be a difficult thing to pull off, but it could become easier with each level of UC talent, creating an extra reason to take those skills.

[noirFan]

I like this COUNTER action. It had me considering a similar type of action:

(k3 & w) DISTRACT Shift one hex (or stand still and distract)
Used against an ENGAGED opponent.
A 3D roll versus IQ to think of some improvised action (like kicking sand in your opponents face) to distract one opponent. A ready weapon is not needed for this action. This action may also be used in HTH (option w). To affect (distract) additional opponents with the same distraction, add an additional die per opponent.
If the roll is successful, all affected opponents are at -6 DX when performing an action on their next turn.

It was inspired from a discussion I had with a friend about doing things in combat that are more than swinging a weapon and "hiding" behind armor class.

[David Bofinger]

I prefer "parry" to "counter" since IIUC in sword fighting a counter usually involves trying to hurt someone.

This isn't a mile away from Dark City rules, but I think your version is less effective for several reasons: (1) the roll is IIRC a little harder, (2) Dark Cities lets you borrow the action for a parry from the next turn if you've already used your action this turn, (3) there are some limits on how much protection you get.

Parry rules tend to make it really suck to be outnumbered, i.e. even more than it already does. Your opponents can afford to parry and still have someone fighting back and you can't.

I sort of like making the margin of success of the attack affect the difficulty of the parry. But you need to decide how much information the character has before deciding whether to parry. Do they know the roll? The margin? Both? Neither?

I wonder if there could be an ACT-like talent which gives you a free parry each turn, or at least gives you your -4 DX version.