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Old 06-28-2019, 06:29 PM   #11
Shoug
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Originally Posted by MikMod View Post
Agreed. Simple == Good in my book. It's a very interesting mechanic to think about, but I'm concerned that:

(a) wizards are almost immediately going to be crippled down to low level spells, and be locked out of using more powerful spells a bit later when they really need them. This could also distort wizards into mainly learning very basic spells. And

(b) what happens after an IQ 12 wizard has acquired 5 points of mental fatigue? Are they now incapable of casting any spells at all?!
Yes. That is the point. As I have said, I didn't intend the mechanic to replace ST as a casting resource. These are last ditch options, for when you're back is against the rope, you've still got mana to cast with. To address point (a): This could distort a wizard into mainly learning very basic spells. You would call such a wizard a "sorcerer" or "savant" or some other new nifty name. But if a wizard valued having access to a wide variety of more powerful spells, he would be more wary of using sorcery to power any spell. It is a new option with drawbacks and tradeoffs.

To answer question (b): Also yes. That's not very different to how wizards have always worked, however. Magic demands a cost, and if you cast too many spells then you will be eventually be unable to cast any more spells. My mechanic offers a new, riskier source of power for your spells, it does not offer a wizard absolution from all limitation. It could be a little bit more powerful, I agree, but those points you brought up are absolutely the goal of the mechanic. Let me share what I've settled for my own campaign:

Savant (1) If a wizard wishes to, he may learn a spell as a Savant. This gives him the ability to pay the cost of that spell by fatiguing his IQ in addition to his ST or Manastaff. IQ powers spells twice as efficiently as ST or mana. If a wizard uses IQ to pay for a spell, but the spell's cost is 1, he is at +1DX to cast the spell. If he renews a continuing type spell with IQ and it's cost was 1, he does not have to renew it on his next turn. For every point of IQ distant a wizard's adjIQ is from the IQ level of the spell he is trying to cast, the wizard is at -2DX to cast that spell.

Sorcery (2) If a wizard wishes to, he may learn a spell as a Sorcerer. This gives him the ability to pay the cost of that spell by fatiguing his IQ in addition to his ST or Manastaff. IQ powers spells thrice as efficiently as ST or mana. If a wizard uses IQ to pay for a spell, but the spell's cost is 1, he is at +2DX to cast the spell (and if the spell's cost is 2, he is at +1DX). If he renews a continuing type spell with IQ and it's cost was 1, he does not have to renew it on his next 2 turns (if it's cost was 2, he does not have to renew it on only is next turn). For every point of IQ distant a wizard's adjIQ is from the IQ level of the spell he is trying to cast, the wizard is at -1DX to cast that spell.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:48 PM   #12
JLV
 
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I really like this idea of IQ as 'mental strength'

I feel it's worth considering, particularly as (in my view) IQ is devalued in the new ITL, and wizards always had it tougher (again in my opinion) because all three stats were vital to them, and now stats are effectively capped.

Given Mana though, is there really a need to make it any more complex than simply 'mental fatigue' as spell cost though? And like fighters don't suddenly become incapable of lifting their swords as they get wounded, I don't see the need to stop wizards using high level spells as they get tired. Cant it work just like ST? Or is there something I've not thought of (which is quite likely :)
Honestly, this is much closer to the way we did it back in the day (that campaign lasted for over two years); we just treated it more or less like "mental fatigue" though we labeled it "Mana" instead. (Which title I actually got from DragonQuest, not from GURPS.) Basically Mana was a resource that was available to you, but which you could only handle as much of as you had IQ points. Once you ran out, you could continue to cast spells, but now you were suffering wounds as in original TFT -- boy howdy, let me tell you, the Wizards were pretty stingy with spells once their Mana allotment for the day was up! (You recharged Mana at either Midnight or Noon -- you could pick which one when you created your character, and thereafter it was always the same time for that particular character -- the players took to calling that being "Day Aspected" or "Night Aspected" for some reason that was never particularly clear to me, but hey, they enjoyed it so I rolled with it!)
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Old 06-29-2019, 01:37 PM   #13
Shoug
 
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Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Honestly, this is much closer to the way we did it back in the day (that campaign lasted for over two years); we just treated it more or less like "mental fatigue" though we labeled it "Mana" instead. (Which title I actually got from DragonQuest, not from GURPS.) Basically Mana was a resource that was available to you, but which you could only handle as much of as you had IQ points. Once you ran out, you could continue to cast spells, but now you were suffering wounds as in original TFT -- boy howdy, let me tell you, the Wizards were pretty stingy with spells once their Mana allotment for the day was up! (You recharged Mana at either Midnight or Noon -- you could pick which one when you created your character, and thereafter it was always the same time for that particular character -- the players took to calling that being "Day Aspected" or "Night Aspected" for some reason that was never particularly clear to me, but hey, they enjoyed it so I rolled with it!)
I'm glad to hear that it didn't get in the way of your fun. I'm gonna be synthesizing a grotesque Fate/TFT chimera for future games to take advantage of Fate's great roleplaying mechanics, so it's comforting to know that Mana is a fun and easy way to circumvent the manastaff (which I won't be using because I won't be using XP). It seems like it would be extremely unbalancing given how difficult it is RAW to amass that kind of casting power, but all eyewitness reports say that it was fun. You really didn't get any sort of "caster supremecy" problems when you did that?
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Old 06-29-2019, 01:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: IQ to power spells

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I'm glad to hear that it didn't get in the way of your fun. I'm gonna be synthesizing a grotesque Fate/TFT chimera for future games to take advantage of Fate's great roleplaying mechanics, so it's comforting to know that Mana is a fun and easy way to circumvent the manastaff (which I won't be using because I won't be using XP). It seems like it would be extremely unbalancing given how difficult it is RAW to amass that kind of casting power, but all eyewitness reports say that it was fun. You really didn't get any sort of "caster supremecy" problems when you did that?
By "caster supremacy" I'm assuming you mean some sort of outsize advantage accruing to the spell-casters? No. Keep in mind that Spell Casters tend to be the most dangerous opponents your non-Wizards will confront anyway -- especially if they are clever about how they use their spells. But this change (from ST to "Mana") didn't really change the dynamic much -- except that it put a premium on Spell Casters increasing their IQ (keep in mind this was "classic" TFT, 30 years ago), which was just fine. Their ST might stay 9 or 10 for quite a while, which made them fairly fragile compared to the Human Tanks and whatnot the rest of the characters were. And again, that was just fine, and more or less what we wanted to have happen.

I like the Fate rules. Maybe post whatever your mash-up looks like at some point? I'd be interested in seeing what choices you made in creating it.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:13 PM   #15
Shoug
 
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By "caster supremacy" I'm assuming you mean some sort of outsize advantage accruing to the spell-casters? No. Keep in mind that Spell Casters tend to be the most dangerous opponents your non-Wizards will confront anyway -- especially if they are clever about how they use their spells. But this change (from ST to "Mana") didn't really change the dynamic much -- except that it put a premium on Spell Casters increasing their IQ (keep in mind this was "classic" TFT, 30 years ago), which was just fine. Their ST might stay 9 or 10 for quite a while, which made them fairly fragile compared to the Human Tanks and whatnot the rest of the characters were. And again, that was just fine, and more or less what we wanted to have happen.

I like the Fate rules. Maybe post whatever your mash-up looks like at some point? I'd be interested in seeing what choices you made in creating it.
I'll be sure to post it here when I get around to it. I just don't like the way TFT handles most of the non-combat talents. The combat oriented talents I find very cool, so the biggest problem solve for the marriage is going to be reconciling the Fate skills with the combat talents and primary attribute rolls of TFT.
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Old 06-30-2019, 05:12 AM   #16
MikMod
 
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I'm gonna be synthesizing a grotesque Fate/TFT chimera for future games to take advantage of Fate's great roleplaying mechanics
Thank you so much for the pointer to Fate! It's really interesting. It feels a bit like an expanded/extended Lady Blackbird style RPG - one I've wanted to try for a while but not gotten round to.

Also very interested in your TFT/Fate mashup ideas! 🤓
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Old 07-04-2019, 07:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: IQ to power spells

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I'll be sure to post it here when I get around to it. I just don't like the way TFT handles most of the non-combat talents. The combat oriented talents I find very cool, so the biggest problem solve for the marriage is going to be reconciling the Fate skills with the combat talents and primary attribute rolls of TFT.
I think this is an excellent idea, and something I have been considering (vaguely, and intermittently at best) for a couple of years now. But I have yet to settle down and actually work my way through it.

Actually, it's brilliant if you think about it. Why SHOULD a game resolve combat and something completely different using the same mechanics? Using a "Fate-like" non-combat resolution is quick and easy, and using TFT-style combat rules is ALSO quick and easy, and both are really tailored to those specific kinds of things. What's not to like there?
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Old 07-05-2019, 12:45 AM   #18
zot
 
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Default Re: IQ to power spells

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I'll be sure to post it here when I get around to it. I just don't like the way TFT handles most of the non-combat talents. The combat oriented talents I find very cool, so the biggest problem solve for the marriage is going to be reconciling the Fate skills with the combat talents and primary attribute rolls of TFT.
I made a post (and a doc) on non-combat activities in TFT about a year ago, btw, Contests, Opposed Rolls, and Tasks -- Feedback, Please? it was this post that first introduced the doc.

Also, here's Resisting Fear (dump stats and 3/L, 3/M, 3/H saving throws) and Contests to change reaction roll results.

SJ eventually went the "compare margin of success" route but I much prefer Dark City Games contest rules (as I mention in my contests document).

Maybe some of the approaches in these posts will appeal to you.
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Old 07-16-2019, 05:07 PM   #19
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: IQ to power spells

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Honestly, this is much closer to the way we did it back in the day (that campaign lasted for over two years); we just treated it more or less like "mental fatigue" though we labeled it "Mana" instead. (Which title I actually got from DragonQuest, not from GURPS.) Basically Mana was a resource that was available to you, but which you could only handle as much of as you had IQ points. Once you ran out, you could continue to cast spells, but now you were suffering wounds as in original TFT -- boy howdy, let me tell you, the Wizards were pretty stingy with spells once their Mana allotment for the day was up! (You recharged Mana at either Midnight or Noon -- you could pick which one when you created your character, and thereafter it was always the same time for that particular character -- the players took to calling that being "Day Aspected" or "Night Aspected" for some reason that was never particularly clear to me, but hey, they enjoyed it so I rolled with it!)
Wow, so similar to the house rules my group used as well so very long ago, with the exception we allowed an individual's Mana stat (we called it MV, for Mana Valence) to recoup at the same speed as ST fatigue. We were inspired by a different source though, the Larry Niven novel "The Magic Goes Away" and its sequel, "The Magic Returns". As I toy with the idea of starting a new gaming group to play TFT again after a 23 year hiatus, I'm very tempted to try your Midnight/Noon system JLV - that's just eloquent.

Our old house rules, as they were left standing back in the day, would be far too much to lay on brand new, novice players. My original group had almost 200 pages of house rules written before ITL and Advanced Wizard came out. While I'll dump and simplify most of that in favor of just using the Legacy Edition for new players, using Mana to pay spell costs is something I'll definitely be keeping along with some related changes.
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Old 07-18-2019, 12:19 AM   #20
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Wow, so similar to the house rules my group used as well so very long ago, with the exception we allowed an individual's Mana stat (we called it MV, for Mana Valence) to recoup at the same speed as ST fatigue. We were inspired by a different source though, the Larry Niven novel "The Magic Goes Away" and its sequel, "The Magic Returns". As I toy with the idea of starting a new gaming group to play TFT again after a 23 year hiatus, I'm very tempted to try your Midnight/Noon system JLV - that's just eloquent.

Our old house rules, as they were left standing back in the day, would be far too much to lay on brand new, novice players. My original group had almost 200 pages of house rules written before ITL and Advanced Wizard came out. While I'll dump and simplify most of that in favor of just using the Legacy Edition for new players, using Mana to pay spell costs is something I'll definitely be keeping along with some related changes.
Yeah, we originally had the Mana recharge the same way you did, but it turned the Wizards into unstoppable long-range artillery that would devastate the enemy at all times, so we switched that up a bit to make it a LITTLE tougher on the Wizards! ;-)

The noon/midnight thing was something I put in there (it could have all been at the same time in reality) simply to give it more of a "magicky" feel to it! The group liked it enough to keep it, and it became standard operating procedure after that. I still like the Mana concept better than the fatigue concept, and if I ever get a face-to-face group going again (I thought I might there for a while, but it kind of fell through), I might very well go with it again.

Sounds like I'd enjoy playing in your campaign! I bet a lot of other people on here would as well.
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