New Xp System: Not a Fan

[JLV]

Or the GM could simply ignore the XP issue entirely if they just want to hand out Attributes or Skills. "This adventure you each go up an attribute point. THIS adventure you each add a skill or a skill level..." And that's it, no metagaming by playing the XP costs of your reward -- the reward is what the reward is, period. If you want something else, you'll just have to wait until next time.

Plus, doesn't the GM have a copy of everyone's character sheets? That's what I always did -- then I should be able to see if everyone would benefit in roughly the same way from some award or not. And as a good GM, then I would tailor the awards to the characters if I was going to use arbitrary awards like this instead of using the XP system.

In short, if you want to play some other way using house rules, it's up to you as the GM to figure out the nuances and allow or disallow this kind of thing. It's your rules, after all...you only need to "design your own XP system" if you don't choose to use the one provided.

[Skarg]

Sure, and I imagine for many TFT GMs, "use GM discretion" may be an easier advancement system than making one that involves numbers.

I imagine such a move will tend to work better for them than trying to use a number-based system.

I would still categorize that as there being problems with the existing system and the GM needing to design their own system if they notice and care about those problems. So the GM uses their discretion, and probably reserves the right to do whatever they see fit. The GM has to figure out what appropriate improvements are for everyone all through the campaign.

It also seems not particularly useful/reliable for new players and GMs, and lacking the ideas from the previous system about what might result in experience or not.

While the old system had flaws, at least it had some ideas which many players who used it still like, such as getting XP for challenging things the characters do during play. The expectation of getting a steady stream of XP not linked to what the characters do ... gives different cause & effect, and different motivations (e.g. avoid danger and collect your XP salary) and play experiences, that I personally see as a big step backwards.

[JLV]

Well, you could always take a good look at the JME version of Classic TFT. He did a pretty good job of detailing all the things that could earn XP -- including "GM discretion!" At least that would save some work for everyone still looking for more detail! ;-)

I've been re-reading his work lately, and it's still good. Plus, it reminds me of where all these people got the "talent points" concept from on here!

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by Skarg

GM: Ok, you all get enough XP to gain an attribute point.

Player: Ok, so my 50th point... that's 4,000 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2, or 4,096,000 XP. I could either gain an attribute, or 8,192 talent points... that should be pretty much all talents and spells? What's the rate for Lesser Wishes, oh, the same, well I only really had a few hundred talents and spells left to learn, so I guess I have several thousand wishes coming to me. Oh, maybe some spending money... 1 gold per XP, yeah so up to 80 million silver? Are any magic items or countries or armies available for sale?

LOL - exactly! Just saying 'give more xp' doesn't address this issue in any way.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by JLV

Well, you could always take a good look at the JME version of Classic TFT.

I'm sorry - I stopped playing TFT a while ago - before the Internets. Can you point me to this 'JME Classic TFT' thing? I have not seen or heard of it. TYVM :)

[JLV]

Originally Posted by MikMod

I'm sorry - I stopped playing TFT a while ago - before the Internets. Can you point me to this 'JME Classic TFT' thing? I have not seen or heard of it. TYVM :)

I'm sure it's been taken down now (Steve requested things like this be taken away last year when "official" TFT went live again.) It used to be on the Brainiac server back in the day.

[larsdangly]

The JME house rules had a lot of original artwork and text in it; it was simply a massive set of house rules built on the bones of the original game, and was never intended for distribution beyond the author's group and a couple of interested grognards. Now that the game is back in print it had to die. But a little bird told me some nuggets of useful original material might see the light of day eventually...

[Tywyll]

Was the JME version the one where the original books were scanned and then edited with the house rules? The one that included different spell casting Talents (Apprentice, Mage, Hermetic Mysteries, Astrology, Bard, Faery Lore, etc)?

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

As in, we're left to try to design our own XP systems that work the way we want.

As long as the GM who wants 50-point characters doesn't mind the doubling XP costs per attribute, and what that means for the flat costs for the other new things characters can spend XP on...

GM: Ok, you all get enough XP to gain an attribute point.

Player: Ok, so my 50th point... that's 4,000 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2, or 4,096,000 XP. I could either gain an attribute, or 8,192 talent points... that should be pretty much all talents and spells? What's the rate for Lesser Wishes, oh, the same, well I only really had a few hundred talents and spells left to learn, so I guess I have several thousand wishes coming to me. Oh, maybe some spending money... 1 gold per XP, yeah so up to 80 million silver? Are any magic items or countries or armies available for sale?

No problemo...

In fairness, you can only have one lesser wish from XP at a time... -- or maybe only one ever? It's hard to tell from the wording

[zot]

Originally Posted by MikMod

Is there another problem with the new system?

In old TFT with xp for fights you tended to get more xp as you progressed, but higher costs for attributes balanced that out completely. Your attributes were you. Simples.

In new TFT you have rapidly increasing attribute costs but fixed costs for manna and talents disconnected from stats. A two-part representation of your PC.

So are we saying the xp system should now be flat, i.e. Whether you're a noob 32 pointer or a 40 point mega hero, you just pick up the same 100xp per session? This makes attribute raises virtually an impossible dream and gives characters a constant stream of new talents for turning up.

Or are we still using the old style xp system, where our heroes do more and get more xp per session as they progress? In which case attributes might be achievable, but talents and manna actually get faster and faster to acquire?

The RAW seem very hazy around this and I worry that it simply hasn't been thought through.

Neither appear ideal to me, and both problems seem caused by the new two-part representation of PCs with completely opposing xp spending. The more I think about it, the more I love the original TFT.

Originally Posted by Skarg

As in, we're left to try to design our own XP systems that work the way we want.

As long as the GM who wants 50-point characters doesn't mind the doubling XP costs per attribute, and what that means for the flat costs for the other new things characters can spend XP on...

GM: Ok, you all get enough XP to gain an attribute point.

Player: Ok, so my 50th point... that's 4,000 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2, or 4,096,000 XP. I could either gain an attribute, or 8,192 talent points... that should be pretty much all talents and spells? What's the rate for Lesser Wishes, oh, the same, well I only really had a few hundred talents and spells left to learn, so I guess I have several thousand wishes coming to me. Oh, maybe some spending money... 1 gold per XP, yeah so up to 80 million silver? Are any magic items or countries or armies available for sale?

No problemo...

Quite early on when Steve was holding discussions on the new XP model, I recommended a flat XP rate for attributes but not many people seemed to think that was a good thing at the time, because of attribute bloat.

If you're giving out attribute points instead of XP (which is what we actually did end up doing back in the 80s, at the ends of stories, just like in Skarg's example), maybe fix the ratio of talent points to attributes at 8, once a character reaches 40 attribute points. That'll net 80 possible more talent points if you don't take the next 10 attribute points to get to 50. It looks like there are 158 points worth of talents and I don't know how many spells -- well over 100. So I think you could easily spend 80 talent points on a combination of talents and spells and maybe even still voraciously desire more for your 40+ point character...