Revising Tollenkar's Lair

[hcobb]

Tollenkar's Lair is largely a Melee/Wizard adventure with no thought put in to counter ITL cheese.

What changes have you made to keep it from being a cakewalk for optimized builds?

[RobW]

I've never GM'd it myself but if I did would probably just run it straight-up.

Pre-legacy, I was part of an ITL squad of 5-6 experienced characters, I don't remember how many points, but enough that my character had UC IV and Drain Strength spell. (pin... and drain. pin... and drain.) A very experienced GM ran it and we were totally defeated. I think we got to the level before Tollenkar, not sure.

[RobW]

I feel confident that the low ST Molly types wouldn't be viable in Tollenkar.

However, if a party was bursting with permanent Blurs, wishes, stone flesh rings etc etc, and found it a boring cakewalk, then I would say the problem isn't with Tollenkar's lair but with the prior games.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Tollenkar's Lair is largely a Melee/Wizard adventure with no thought put in to counter ITL cheese.

What changes have you made to keep it from being a cakewalk for optimized builds?

If by "optimized" you mean the "typical" characters you are always going on and on about, I would nip things in the bud right there during character generation.

[larsdangly]

Lots of party types can do well in levels 1-3 (particularly if they are quite careful to stay stealthy), but levels 5-6 are genuinely difficult for anyone unless the GM rolls over and plays dead. Half the foes have stat totals beyond what most PC's will ever have, and plenty of good gear and talents. I GM'd it recently and can't believe anyone's 'trick' party could handle the lower levels.

[hcobb]

UC throws and grapples will de-mana the top enemy wizards. Combine with whip entangles for extra fun.

[Skarg]

Oh, and by the way, I think this thread should start with:

   _____ _____   ____ _____ _      ______ _____   _____ 
  / ____|  __ \ / __ \_   _| |    |  ____|  __ \ / ____|
 | (___ | |__) | |  | || | | |    | |__  | |__) | (___  
  \___ \|  ___/| |  | || | | |    |  __| |  _  / \___ \ 
  ____) | |    | |__| || |_| |____| |____| | \ \ ____) |
 |_____/|_|     \____/_____|______|______|_|  \_\_____/

Because Tollenkar's Lair has many interesting elements of DISCOVERY of information, so writing about what's in it can tend to ruin that experience for players who have not yet played it.



It's not a cakewalk if you GM it as originally designed.

You're supposed to study the positions of the inhabitants and then use the full labyrinth-scale rules, such as the distance noise carries on the labyrinth map, and roleplay inhabitants so that they don't just come at the party piecemeal, but raise the alarm and respond with self-preservation and the ability to react and organize against intruders in mind.

I've GM'd it a few times, including a party that brought lots and lots of NPCs, and no one ever got further than the 4th level. I think mostly thanks to my GM style, largely learned by coming to understand what I wrote above by GM'ing Tollenkar's Lair and learning the difference between programmed adventures taken room by room, and entire labyrinths treated as whole living systems that whose inhabitants will respond actively once alerted.

I also seem to have learned something about inspiring fear and caution and getting players to take game situations seriously.

Originally Posted by hcobb

UC throws and grapples will de-mana the top enemy wizards. Combine with whip entangles for extra fun.

Um no, no they won't. I mean, whip is an inadequately developed rule that wants serious adjustment, but still.

I would apply house rules to shut down rules abuses, but that's nothing to do with Tollenkar's Lair.

[hcobb]

Will you remove everything that one-shots Tollenkar?
Including the things in Wizard?

[larsdangly]

I don't t understand how a whip or UC throw is supposed to 'one shot' a hugely experienced and resourceful wizard surrounded by a wrecking crew of armed and experienced henchmen.

[Skarg]

Again, trying to make the problem with whips into a problem with Tollenkar seems utterly irrelevant.

On the one hand, whips and lassos (and to a slightly lesser extent, the other entangling weapons) all have problems because the let you knock someone down and entangle them with chances that take nothing into account other than your own to-hit roll (which for whips and lassos is also even more easy than for bolas and nets).

And that has NOTHING to do with Tollenkar's Lair. Yes, it's possible to defeat Tollenkar, especially if you are clever, in various ways (none of which need to involve annoying munchkin characters), as is intentional. It's also very possible to die horribly, even on level one, especially if you haven't pre-read the adventure as a player, or if your GM hasn't studied the module and doesn't know how to run it, or if your GM is just going to let you win and/or the GM is you.