priest and theologian

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by zot

Er, just so I know we're on the same page, have you taken a look at my priest system? I only ask because I think it can address a lot of what you're saying. It also feels different IMO from other priest systems or magic and I think its simplicity lets it blend well into TFT (which is what I designed it for) without requiring extra attributes, points, etc.

I had time to look at it, though I haven't digested all of it or tested out how it would go. I think it looks really interesting and well thought out, and it would certainly provide a framework that would encourage players that they would know sort of what to expect but the details could still be private to each specific religion.

The numbers, types, and power levels of the available rituals could vary a lot by religion, which I like. I might also vary the ritual schedule and the tier system... I already tend to break my religions and wizardly orders into tiers with access to different things, and each structure tends to be a bit different.

The main thing I wouldn't do is have them all have healing talents & spells.

...

(Still I like there being plenty of room for the original TFT flavor that we had in our campaigns, where religion and gods mostly have no magic-like directly worldly zap powers, or if they do, mostly only the priests and theologians, or people who've witnessed them, have much idea what they might be and how they might work. But that can be accomplished by keeping in a few sentences mentioning that of course the GM can have or not have whatever they want for each religion.)

[zot]

Please move this to the house rules subforum

[Anomylous]

Fair warning, I haven't yet taken the time to read this whole thread, so may be repeating an idea already discussed:

I don't usually like the idea of "cleric spells" much, since if you're going to have gods in your game, said gods will presumably have their own mysterious and ineffable goals, and won't necessarily allow their power to be channeled according to a player's whim.

However, they might listen to a heartfelt plea...

One way of allowing semi-predictable divine intervention would be to create a list of common things characters might pray for (extra damage in combat, or a DX penalty for enemies to hit, healing, etc.), and assign each item a numerical value, with more powerful effects having higher numbers.

Then, any character is allowed to pray for a thing, make a die roll, add modifiers, and if the number they come up with equals or beats the value of what they prayed for, then the gods grant their prayer.

Talents like Priest and Theologian would give you more dice to roll, while context like "spent hours chanting prayers in a temple while burning valuable incense" or "actively engaged in a mission to bring glory to this particular god" would grant bonuses. A supplicant's relevant Talents could be taken into account, too - a Physicker's prayer for healing might be more effective, as might a Warrior's prayer for strength. The Charisma talent and the Persuasiveness spell might provide an all-around bonus. Multiple figures praying for the same thing should be counted as a single, more powerful prayer, rather than allowing multiple attempts to be made.

Advantages: Totally different feel from wizard magic. Highly flexible; characters could pray for anything, provided the GM was willing to slap a target number on it. Still usable in situations with no GM, just more limited in what you could pray for.

Disadvantages: Harsh - success depends on one single die roll, and you don't get to try again because that would be cheating. Doesn't have much flavor built-in, compared to other systems of priestly magic.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Anomylous

Fair warning, I haven't yet taken the time to read this whole thread, so may be repeating an idea already discussed:

I don't usually like the idea of "cleric spells" much, since if you're going to have gods in your game, said gods will presumably have their own mysterious and ineffable goals, and won't necessarily allow their power to be channeled according to a player's whim.

However, they might listen to a heartfelt plea...

That's been one of the major focuses of this thread and that's fine for a hero who's a priest on the side when it comes to action in the game. I.e. the character might take their religion seriously but "might listen" doesn't really affect your character day-to-day and doesn't define what they actually DO during adventures. So... not a satisfying situation at all for a "priest character".

Which is why I made the theurgy toolkit, a system for priest characters who can do supernatural things but who don't feel like TFT wizards or D&D clerics. The system has a ton of room for flavor and it's based on ceremonies performed at "appointed times", which you can find in all of the major world religions, as well as all of the minor ones that I know of. The toolkit doesn't support any particular set of religions, it's a way for GMs and players to define their own or to define how the ones outlined in ITL work at their tables. It provides two extremely different example religions that don't appear in the ITL list, which have been (and are being) play tested.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

My thoughts on the subject of a religious system, or rather lack there off. :-)

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...=1#post2197557

[JLV]

Steve said (in another thread) that he was thinking about introducing "karma" or "luck" points as a concept. I don't know if he's actually going to do it or not (I don't think we ever got definitive closure on that idea, and besides, things change when you see how an idea fits in with the rest of the rules sometimes), but, if he does so, I intend to use that as my basis for religion, I think.

In effect, only Clerical types (Priests or Theologians) will be able to generate Karma/Luck points, and can gift them to other players via some kind of mechanism. Evil clerics could do the same for their minions, too. This, I think, fits the general idea I personally have for how I want religions to work -- indirect benefits that can seem (in storytelling perspective) like just incredibly good -- or bad -- luck. I'm not sure of the mechanism I'll use for the process yet (that depends on how, or even if, karma/luck is put into the game), but it seems fairly unobtrusive, prevents Gods from taking over the game*, and gives Priests/Theologians a unique capability without having to create an entire sub-genre of powers and spells. Other than that one unique ability, the Priest/Theologian group will function just as they do now (pretty untrammeled by meaningless rules a la D&D; unless their religion imposes such a rule -- "no edged weapons!" -- on them by fiat).

I'm not sure that would satisfy everyone (or, come to think of it, anyone) else, but I think it will work for me. ;-)

*Needless to say, I'll use the usual deitybabble in many of the fantasy novels to explain it: "The Gods can't directly confront one another lest they destroy the entire world, and so have to provide blessings to their followers and hope they use them well to further that God's goals and objectives."

[Terquem]

I'm typically against any mechanism that is specifically restricted to one type of character.

Every player should be able to play the sort of hero they see their character being. If the hero fights well, casts spells well, does neither well, or whatever, and even if that includes the ability to cast a spell or use a talent that heals the Strength score of another character, that ability should be available to any character.

The way I see it, the choice to have an ability that does not compliment your characters specific purpose, fighting, sneaking, disarming traps, supporting, is a choice that makes each character unique and balanced. You should not be able to build a five-star combat machine, who can also summon monster, throw fireballs, heal and protect your friends, and disarm delicate traps. You are going to have to decide to be really good at one of these things, or only a little good at a couple of them, or possibly just passable at all of them.

[JLV]

Since I intend to restrict the mechanism to a Talent, and not a character, I think I've got that objection covered. After all, anyone can take (or learn) the Talent, right?

[Terquem]

If the mechanism is a function of a Talent, and there are no artificial restrictions for taking the talent, then yes you have a system I agree with.

However, it might be that creating "karma points" or other such tools to be applied through the use of the talent may introduce unnecessary complications. Each Talent or Spell should have a use limiter, that is, using this talent or spell requires the roll of certain dice, the expenditure of certain resources.

Since we already use Strength, as a resource for casting spells, creating an additional resource that must be tracked and managed might be unnecessary.

Now, warriors do not expend resources to swing a sword or stab with a spear, so these are the sorts of talents that are "resource less" and as I review my own house rule ideas I am looking at introducing certain Spells or something like spells, available to wizards which do not use Strength.

This, for me, is the hardest thing to balance in this game. Warriors can do tremendous damage with their weapons, wizards can do the same with spells, but, warriors can effectively go on dealing damage all day long, until they are hurt, while wizards are by their nature a limited resource.

Either wizards should be perfectly capable of fighting with weapons they have the talent for and their spells should be even more powerful than they currently are, or they should have access to some types of magic spells that can be used for a long duration for a single resource used. (Example:give up two Strength to charge their wand with "magic Bolts" and allow them to cast one from the wand as an action, doing d6+1 damage on a successful ranged attack treated as a thrown weapon with a +2 AdjDex, or something like that for a number of uses equal to IQ).

[JLV]

Well, as I said, there is no actual mechanism yet, because:

1) I don't know if the "Karma/Luck Points" rule will even exist in ITL, and;

2) If it does, I don't know how Steve will write it up, and that will have a material effect on anything I decide to do with it in this regard.

Once those two questions are answered, THEN I'll be able to figure out the details.

As far as tracking it goes, I'd probably use some kind little plastic disc or something that each represents a single point and which the players hold onto until they decide to expend the point. (I'd also want to make sure that the points were few and far enough between that the decision to use one becomes a tough decision to make, but that again depends on how (or if) Steve writes the underlying rule.)