Converting GURPS characters to TFT

[Jim Kane]

Skarg - I am sorry; I cannot speak to GURPS with any authority, as I lack the depth of background with that system to competently expound on it.

All I can do, is what I have done; and that is to illustrate how the bare-hand-damage model shows that base unit of a given value used in the two systems are of decidedly different mathematical scales. TFT is like "N-gauge Trains" and the other, GURPS, is like "O scale Trains".

So the only important take-away I can offer is: there is no accuracy in a direct transfer of a stated value between systems; as "10" means two different things depending on the scale of the system.

One interesting experiment you might try: Pit 2 identically valued, armored, and weaponed figures against each other - one a TFT figure, and his GURPS twin - and play the TFT-man according to the TFT combat and damage rules, and the GURPS twin according to the GURPS combat and damage rules.

Run 12 or so identical trials, the results should be most illuminating.

Remember: "When in doubt, take it to the lab for trials." ;-D

That's all I have my friend.

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

So the only important take-away I can offer is: there is no accuracy in a direct transfer of a stated value between systems; as "10" means two different things depending on the scale of the system.

I thought I mentioned it in my previous post but I left it out, but 10 is actually the point of agreement, at least in terms of it being the theoretical average attribute value for normal people in both games. I think that's more relevant than comparing unarmed damage, because the combat in the two games plays out fairly differently in many ways.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

One interesting experiment you might try: Pit 2 identically valued, armored, and weaponed figures against each other - one a TFT figure, and his GURPS twin - and play the TFT-man according to the TFT combat and damage rules, and the GURPS twin according to the GURPS combat and damage rules.

Hehe! Now that's a creative idea! It would be interesting to try to see the differences, but the combat systems are quite different, and represent different things, and there are several points you'd need to decide which system applies. For example, GURPS turns are 1-second each versus 5-second TFT turns. There's no Engagement in GURPS, so you'd have to interpret that as only the TFT player gets engaged, or only the TFT player engages anyone, or neither or both. That kind of question would keep coming up. Having played both systems extensively, and converted a massive TFT campaign to GURPS and played it as GURPS, it is possible and interesting to convert, but they play extremely differently.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Hehe! Now that's a creative idea! It would be interesting to try to see the differences, but the combat systems are quite different, and represent different things, and there are several points you'd need to decide which system applies. For example, GURPS turns are 1-second each versus 5-second TFT turns. There's no Engagement in GURPS, so you'd have to interpret that as only the TFT player gets engaged, or only the TFT player engages anyone, or neither or both. That kind of question would keep coming up. Having played both systems extensively, and converted a massive TFT campaign to GURPS and played it as GURPS, it is possible and interesting to convert, but they play extremely differently.

Yes, because the scales are different. And the time/phase scales is different too.

After the TFT figure attacked, how many 1 second attacks can a GURPS figure launch, before the TFT figure can attack again after 5 seconds of play have elapsed. and it becomes his action phase again?

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Yes, because the scales are different. And the time/phase scales is different too.

After the TFT figure attacked, how many 1 second attacks can a GURPS figure launch, before the TFT figure can attack again after 5 seconds of play have elapsed. and it becomes his action phase again?

Depends on what he's equipped with, but with a hand weapon, typically at least 5 attacks. If he knows he's not going to need to avoid getting attacked himself, probably twice as many.

But that's not nearly the only difference. The TFT character gets to actively parry, dodge, and block attacks, move freely, do quite a few types of attacks not found in TFT. His armor probably doesn't reduce his DX (or at most, -2DX for unfitted plate and a visored helmet).

Some of the differences could be translated in favor of the TFT fighter, though. You could say he gets to go first if his adjDX is higher, which it might be, and let him attack as much as you can attack for 5 seconds in GURPS, and even say that since TFT characters don't have active defenses, he gets to do 5 All-Out Attacks, so that's like 10 attacks... but really it's all a bit silly to try to run both systems at once, except to see how different the systems are.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Skarg

...The TFT character gets to actively parry, dodge, and block attacks, move freely, do quite a few types of attacks not found in TFT...

Well that's not the same thing as what I taking about, as you have now changed the time-scale for the TFT figure, and accelerated the figure to match the GURPS time-scale. That will mask the difference. What I was driving at, is that there are more differentials at work between the two systems than just the value of the attributes and damage scales - there is also the time-scale to account for if converting between these two systems. Measuring two *complete* systems against each other, and in their proper form, will quickly illustrate other inequities between the two systems, which are not so apparent on paper.

I wish I could talk intelligently about the finer math behind GURPS, but I just don't know the system well enough to discuss it properly. However, playing out some combats properly between the two systems will allow you to *feel* the difference in a way the math will not reveal to you when stated as a formula.

JK

[Anthony]

Game system conversions, unless the systems are very similar, always need to be done on 'consider how the character is supposed to feel, then design a similar effect in the other system', rather than anything formulaic.

[JLV]

That's very true.

[Jim Kane]

Anthony what you are describing is not performing a *conversion*, but rather, creating an *analog*.

From what has been described as a method, when renering a DX 10 TFT figure in GURPS, you simple slide 10 value right on over to GURPS, and this is supposed to be the same... okay, and if you take the same figures ST of 10, and slide that over, and it is still okay..... hmmm..

Yet.. the TFT figure just became 500% Faster and 160% Stronger; not an exactly equivalent conversion when the TFT attribute values are transferred directly to the GURP scale; is it?

I *really* was trying to avoid this discussion at all costs, but that fact of the matter is, in order to convert between systems of differing scales with any reasonable degree of accuracy, unless you are okay with *really really fudgey* as I said in my initial comment - you have to find the functional mathematical center between the two systems of different scales, which will then reveal the differential.

Otherwise all you have done is to say: 10 Kilometers equals 10 Miles - when in point-of-fact 10 Kilometers converts to 6.21 Miles.

Now, if you want to do what Anthony is talking about, that's good; but understand, that is simply creating *an analog* figure in the other scale/system and specifically for the other system/scale - is not the same thing as *a conversion*.

In short, creating an analog figure and performing a conversion of a figure from one scale/system to another are not the same things.

So why is this so important to understand?

If you consider RobW's OP, he stated: "Looking at the GURPS material on sale, so much of it! But despite several attempts I've never gotten into it. So does anyone have guidance or pointers on how to approximately convert GURPS characters to TFT? I figure there must be a lot of expertise on these boards.

And he is right, the GURPS' back-library is ripe with material for TFT, *but* there is no way to *convert* it easily; it would all have to re-estimated as *an analog*, one figure at a time, one weapon at a time, etc.

Those are the cold, hard facts of the math.

JK

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

From what has been described as a method, when renering a DX 10 TFT figure in GURPS, you simple slide 10 value right on over to GURPS, and this is supposed to be the same... okay, and if you take the same figures ST of 10, and slide that over, and it is still okay..... hmmm..

I would say that does work.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Yet.. the TFT figure just became 500% Faster and 160% Stronger; not an exactly equivalent conversion when the TFT attribute values are transferred directly to the GURP scale; is it?

No, it's crazy, but that's just because I was trying to engage your thought problem of what it would look like to try to run one ruleset for one character and another for another in combat against each other. I think that is where the messy chaos is.

But just converting doesn't seem like a big deal to me. I still think in terms of both TFT & GURPS even when playing campaigns that aren't a conversion, sometimes even when playing/inventing other games, or even thinking about real life.

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

I *really* was trying to avoid this discussion at all costs, but that fact of the matter is, in order to convert between systems of differing scales with any reasonable degree of accuracy, unless you are okay with *really really fudgey* as I said in my initial comment - you have to find the functional mathematical center between the two systems of different scales, which will then reveal the differential.

Otherwise all you have done is to say: 10 Kilometers equals 10 Miles - when in point-of-fact 10 Kilometers converts to 6.21 Miles.

Now, if you want to do what Anthony is talking about, that's good; but understand, that is simply creating *an analog* figure in the other scale/system and specifically for the other system/scale - is not the same thing as *a conversion*.

In short, creating an analog figure and performing a conversion of a figure from one scale/system to another are not the same things.

So why is this so important to understand?

If you consider RobW's OP, he stated: "Looking at the GURPS material on sale, so much of it! But despite several attempts I've never gotten into it. So does anyone have guidance or pointers on how to approximately convert GURPS characters to TFT? I figure there must be a lot of expertise on these boards.

And he is right, the GURPS' back-library is ripe with material for TFT, *but* there is no way to *convert* it easily; it would all have to re-estimated as *an analog*, one figure at a time, one weapon at a time, etc.

Those are the cold, hard facts of the math.

I don't think the completely-accurate translation you call a "conversion" is entirely possible, because it's not even close to a one-dimensional problem. Not only does TFT have fewer data points, but the games use the common datapoints differently, and play very differently.

On the other hand, I think what you call "analogs" are quite easy to come up with, and are the sane approach (compared to trying for an impossible perfect translation). And there are a variety of styles for doing that, ranging from "just use the GURPS stats for TFT" (which I think can actually work fairly well in many cases), to "be an expert in both systems and apply GM discretion" (which works well for me but not for people who don't know both systems well), to quick & dirty guidelines (a few of which were posted above, and are pretty good), to more thorough systems which can be developed.

[Jim Kane]

Like I said a few posts back about how involved doing an accurate conversion would be in lieu of just going for *fudgey*: "Do what you like".

If you are really interested - and I would be surprised if you were - in what the actual multiplicative conversion factors are in the field of mathematics on the subject of values as units-of-measure and conversion; you might enjoy reading this.

But unless you are a mathematician, you might enjoy a root-canal more. ;-D

Otherwise, my best suggestion is what I also said in my earlier post: simply make your best estimate by feel and make a fudgey analog, and get out there and "Fight On!"

JK